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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8927343" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>What on <em>earth</em> gave you the idea this was an argument? I explicitly said it wasn't!</p><p></p><p>And <em>bullying,</em> for God's sake? How was even <em>one single part</em> of my example "bullying" me? It was a reasonable discussion between friends. Friends who convinced one another to adopt a path that wasn't what either of them <em>initially</em> thought was correct/fitting/desirable, but which they both agreed <em>was</em> correct/fitting/desirable after discussing it, where discussion would have continued until both sides felt that way.</p><p></p><p>I'll be sure to mention your description of this hypothetical to the player though. I suspect he will find it both dumbfounding and hilarious in equal measure. Asserting himself in <em>any</em> context is a struggle. (I have mostly shy players.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>What? Why? How? I am <em>incredibly</em> confused. Why are you assuming jerk behavior? Why are you assuming I would not do the same for you? How did you conclude that this would be so out of the blue when (as I have said several times) Dungeon World requires that all actions be rooted in and driven by the fiction? How could I possibly embrace <em>any</em> creativity at all, whatsoever, if I cannot have the player do things that aren't predefined?</p><p></p><p>And why would you feel <em>resentment</em> because one of your allies got a chance to do something cool? Do you really harbor such envy of your fellow players, or have I completely misread your position here?</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's neither a competition nor metagame. What gave you any indication it was either?</p><p></p><p></p><p>....so you're going to respond to behavior you dislike with rude behavior of your own? Why? How is that even remotely productive?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, <em>why are you assuming such vicious rudeness?!</em></p><p></p><p></p><p>Prove it. <em>Truly</em> saying "no," rather than some form of "yes and" or "yes but" or "no but," is something I have done, perhaps, three times. One of those is debatable (as it was more like my policy against evil characters: not "I refuse" but rather "I recognize this is beyond my skills as a DM.") The first time was a player asking for something genuinely unacceptable in any context; I explained why patiently, since he was new to TTRPGs, and he understood and accepted that his request was beyond the pale (it was exploitative of combat mechanics, to be specific, and the <em>point</em> of the request was the exploit itself.) The second time was telling a player out of game that unless he reformed his behavior (he was very clearly playing other video games while we were in session and not listening) he would be asked to leave.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay. I already said I refuse to be used by others. How is that not covered? How is it somehow insufficient that I have said I support <em>genuine</em> player enthusiasm? By "genuine," I mean things that are not exploitative (using the letter of the rules against the spirit), abusive (intentionally breaking decorum, or actual rules, to grub for advantages), or coercive (manipulating other players to do things against their will.) How have you leapt from the incredibly mild example I gave to "ah, this player is a selfish jerk clearly bullying Ezekiel into doing whatever they want, whenever they want, at the expense of the entire rest of the group." Seriously? That is not just uncharitable, it is actively interpolating ideas and concepts <em>denied</em> by my description!</p><p></p><p></p><p>This wasn't an argument. What gave you even the slightest idea it was? I have already said I don't argue with my players. We never even raise our voices (except out of shock, finding something humorous, or as part of RP.) I explicitly said that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8927343, member: 6790260"] What on [I]earth[/I] gave you the idea this was an argument? I explicitly said it wasn't! And [I]bullying,[/I] for God's sake? How was even [I]one single part[/I] of my example "bullying" me? It was a reasonable discussion between friends. Friends who convinced one another to adopt a path that wasn't what either of them [I]initially[/I] thought was correct/fitting/desirable, but which they both agreed [I]was[/I] correct/fitting/desirable after discussing it, where discussion would have continued until both sides felt that way. I'll be sure to mention your description of this hypothetical to the player though. I suspect he will find it both dumbfounding and hilarious in equal measure. Asserting himself in [I]any[/I] context is a struggle. (I have mostly shy players.) What? Why? How? I am [I]incredibly[/I] confused. Why are you assuming jerk behavior? Why are you assuming I would not do the same for you? How did you conclude that this would be so out of the blue when (as I have said several times) Dungeon World requires that all actions be rooted in and driven by the fiction? How could I possibly embrace [I]any[/I] creativity at all, whatsoever, if I cannot have the player do things that aren't predefined? And why would you feel [I]resentment[/I] because one of your allies got a chance to do something cool? Do you really harbor such envy of your fellow players, or have I completely misread your position here? It's neither a competition nor metagame. What gave you any indication it was either? ....so you're going to respond to behavior you dislike with rude behavior of your own? Why? How is that even remotely productive? Again, [I]why are you assuming such vicious rudeness?![/I] Prove it. [I]Truly[/I] saying "no," rather than some form of "yes and" or "yes but" or "no but," is something I have done, perhaps, three times. One of those is debatable (as it was more like my policy against evil characters: not "I refuse" but rather "I recognize this is beyond my skills as a DM.") The first time was a player asking for something genuinely unacceptable in any context; I explained why patiently, since he was new to TTRPGs, and he understood and accepted that his request was beyond the pale (it was exploitative of combat mechanics, to be specific, and the [I]point[/I] of the request was the exploit itself.) The second time was telling a player out of game that unless he reformed his behavior (he was very clearly playing other video games while we were in session and not listening) he would be asked to leave. Okay. I already said I refuse to be used by others. How is that not covered? How is it somehow insufficient that I have said I support [I]genuine[/I] player enthusiasm? By "genuine," I mean things that are not exploitative (using the letter of the rules against the spirit), abusive (intentionally breaking decorum, or actual rules, to grub for advantages), or coercive (manipulating other players to do things against their will.) How have you leapt from the incredibly mild example I gave to "ah, this player is a selfish jerk clearly bullying Ezekiel into doing whatever they want, whenever they want, at the expense of the entire rest of the group." Seriously? That is not just uncharitable, it is actively interpolating ideas and concepts [I]denied[/I] by my description! This wasn't an argument. What gave you even the slightest idea it was? I have already said I don't argue with my players. We never even raise our voices (except out of shock, finding something humorous, or as part of RP.) I explicitly said that. [/QUOTE]
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