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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8928225" data-attributes="member: 42582">[USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] It's an interesting model that supports a plausible conjecture (ie inside the play loop we don't want to establish/author new things that will reconceptualize the situation in question, at least not without extreme care).As is the way with we academic lawyer/philosopher types, my first thought was of the following problem case:The system being played is ostensibly &quot;trad&quot;, so within your model its play loop is a session or two. The action involves the PCs entering an urban building stealthily. And a player asks &quot;Is there a box/crate/piece of abandoned furniture/etc nearby that I can use to get up high and peer through the window?&quot;I don't think AD&amp;D has a principled way of answering that question. Rolemaster doesn't; nor does Spacemaster. I don't think RuneQuest does. I'm not sure about HERO or GURPS but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.Classic Traveller doesn't have one as written, though my view is that it actually handles it more easily than the above systems, because it can be approached in the same way as Apocalypse World would handle it without any loss of play integrity.I think there are multiple lessons that could be taken away from this problem case. One of them is that at least some &quot;trad&quot; systems present themselves as being robust across a wider range of fictional situations than they actually have the capacity to support.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8928225, member: 42582"] [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] It's an interesting model that supports a plausible conjecture (ie [i]inside the play loop we don't want to establish/author new things that will reconceptualize the situation in question, at least not without extreme care[/i]). As is the way with we academic lawyer/philosopher types, my first thought was of the following problem case: The system being played is ostensibly "trad", so within your model its play loop is a session or two. The action involves the PCs entering an urban building stealthily. And a player asks "Is there a box/crate/piece of abandoned furniture/etc nearby that I can use to get up high and peer through the window?" I don't think AD&D has a principled way of answering that question. Rolemaster doesn't; nor does Spacemaster. I don't think RuneQuest does. I'm not sure about HERO or GURPS but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't. Classic Traveller doesn't have one as written, though my view is that it actually handles it more easily than the above systems, because it can be approached in the same way as Apocalypse World would handle it without any loss of play integrity. I think there are multiple lessons that could be taken away from this problem case. One of them is that at least some "trad" systems present themselves as being robust across a wider range of fictional situations than they actually have the capacity to support. [/QUOTE]

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