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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8928960" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I think you are really confused. And I'm beginning to think that word "recontextualizes" is meaningless, or at the very least grandiloquent. The way you are using the word, all propositions recontextualize the fiction.</p><p></p><p>To begin with, let's talk about the process of play in a Trad game. In a Trad game, you analyze an inanimate object in the fiction and you make a proposition to interact with it. This could include breaking, bending, dislodging, detaching, or whatever any piece or part of that object. That is to say in Trad play what you propose to do is specific, concrete, interaction with the fiction. You do not (usually) propose Moves in Trad play. You can but the proposition of a move is often strictly secondary to a natural language proposition or as an alternative to a natural language proposition. For example, when interacting with the lock, you might want to say, "I visually inspect the lock mechanism, being careful not to touch anything." prior to declaring a move like, "I check for traps." (Implicitly declaring the intent to use a "Find Traps" skill.) </p><p></p><p>A proposition like, "Using a prybar, I want to remove the bolts from the lock mechanism quietly so that I can disassemble it without damaging it permanently" is perfectly valid Trad proposition. The main differences between that and DW's Fighter Move is that the Fighter Move is abstract and has priority and it's up to the player and the GM to talk out what that abstract move means in terms of concrete fiction. But I can equally imagine as a process of play in Trad gaming, a player asking the GM, "Is there a way I can remove the lock without permanently damaging it and without making too much noise?" and a discussion going on about whether that was possible and what that meant before the GM decided whether or not a fortune roll was needed (or was it such a straightforward plan it just happened) and if a fortune roll was needed what would it be.</p><p></p><p>The only real advantage here is that DW has kind of outlined this process of play formally and the only real mechanical change is that by emphasizing the abstract over the concrete, the player is put into a position where less often the GM is going to say, "That particular outcome is not possible." And if you want to say, "No, the GM can't say no.", then I suggest you should consider what happens when the player calls "Bend Bars, Lift Gates" as a move on The One Ring, Castle Greyskull, or Mount Everest. It's clear that the talking it out phase in Dungeon World includes some degree of negotiation about how much time and strength is needed to break something. The abstraction works only if the player is not trying to use the Move abusively and is using it against ordinary dungeon features and items of a suitable size (and possibly with suitable tools available, if only a trusty battle-axe). </p><p></p><p>But yes, I concede it is in some ways a better written skill than many typical D&D skills. But I don't concede that it is different in kind from D&D skills. It's not any different than doing something like declaring you are tumbling through a threatened area without drawing an AoO. You aren't recontextualizing the scene. You are only proposing to do something within the established fiction. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a strawman. I can see a lot of different skills being potentially applied to sabotage an inanimate object, but I see no reason whatsoever to think it requires more than one roll.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, there are bad DMs. Whether or not it's a good idea to roll once and roll with it depends on the circumstances. You are imagining a hypothetical bad process of play and then burning that down.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How is that any different than trad play. Anything not set by the stakes is always valid things for the GM to use to frame the resolution of the scene. Taking a long time doing something in Trad play always invites wandering monster checks or monsters making additional preparations. That's straight out of the 1e AD&D DMG. Breaking something causing noise, say forcing a barred door whether by brute strength or the Knock spell, always has the potential to alert nearby monsters. Are you saying though that the GM should metagame based on what the PC didn't pick? Like are you saying that a monster should be nearby to be alerted because the player didn't pick, "Doesn't cause noise."?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it just changes the adjudication of the scene. That's very different than recontexualizing the scene. If all you mean by "recontextualizes" is "The shared fiction is changed after a successful proposition" (something that normally happens after a successful proposition), you really need to find a penny word to express that and stop using a 50-cent version. If you mean the outcome of the fortune recontexualizes the proposition itself, then that's just shifting from fortune in the middle to fortune at the beginning, which is a real shift because you have to backfill what the proposition was in the first place, but that's not really doing what you've been focused on hitherto.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8928960, member: 4937"] I think you are really confused. And I'm beginning to think that word "recontextualizes" is meaningless, or at the very least grandiloquent. The way you are using the word, all propositions recontextualize the fiction. To begin with, let's talk about the process of play in a Trad game. In a Trad game, you analyze an inanimate object in the fiction and you make a proposition to interact with it. This could include breaking, bending, dislodging, detaching, or whatever any piece or part of that object. That is to say in Trad play what you propose to do is specific, concrete, interaction with the fiction. You do not (usually) propose Moves in Trad play. You can but the proposition of a move is often strictly secondary to a natural language proposition or as an alternative to a natural language proposition. For example, when interacting with the lock, you might want to say, "I visually inspect the lock mechanism, being careful not to touch anything." prior to declaring a move like, "I check for traps." (Implicitly declaring the intent to use a "Find Traps" skill.) A proposition like, "Using a prybar, I want to remove the bolts from the lock mechanism quietly so that I can disassemble it without damaging it permanently" is perfectly valid Trad proposition. The main differences between that and DW's Fighter Move is that the Fighter Move is abstract and has priority and it's up to the player and the GM to talk out what that abstract move means in terms of concrete fiction. But I can equally imagine as a process of play in Trad gaming, a player asking the GM, "Is there a way I can remove the lock without permanently damaging it and without making too much noise?" and a discussion going on about whether that was possible and what that meant before the GM decided whether or not a fortune roll was needed (or was it such a straightforward plan it just happened) and if a fortune roll was needed what would it be. The only real advantage here is that DW has kind of outlined this process of play formally and the only real mechanical change is that by emphasizing the abstract over the concrete, the player is put into a position where less often the GM is going to say, "That particular outcome is not possible." And if you want to say, "No, the GM can't say no.", then I suggest you should consider what happens when the player calls "Bend Bars, Lift Gates" as a move on The One Ring, Castle Greyskull, or Mount Everest. It's clear that the talking it out phase in Dungeon World includes some degree of negotiation about how much time and strength is needed to break something. The abstraction works only if the player is not trying to use the Move abusively and is using it against ordinary dungeon features and items of a suitable size (and possibly with suitable tools available, if only a trusty battle-axe). But yes, I concede it is in some ways a better written skill than many typical D&D skills. But I don't concede that it is different in kind from D&D skills. It's not any different than doing something like declaring you are tumbling through a threatened area without drawing an AoO. You aren't recontextualizing the scene. You are only proposing to do something within the established fiction. This is a strawman. I can see a lot of different skills being potentially applied to sabotage an inanimate object, but I see no reason whatsoever to think it requires more than one roll. Sure, there are bad DMs. Whether or not it's a good idea to roll once and roll with it depends on the circumstances. You are imagining a hypothetical bad process of play and then burning that down. How is that any different than trad play. Anything not set by the stakes is always valid things for the GM to use to frame the resolution of the scene. Taking a long time doing something in Trad play always invites wandering monster checks or monsters making additional preparations. That's straight out of the 1e AD&D DMG. Breaking something causing noise, say forcing a barred door whether by brute strength or the Knock spell, always has the potential to alert nearby monsters. Are you saying though that the GM should metagame based on what the PC didn't pick? Like are you saying that a monster should be nearby to be alerted because the player didn't pick, "Doesn't cause noise."? No, it just changes the adjudication of the scene. That's very different than recontexualizing the scene. If all you mean by "recontextualizes" is "The shared fiction is changed after a successful proposition" (something that normally happens after a successful proposition), you really need to find a penny word to express that and stop using a 50-cent version. If you mean the outcome of the fortune recontexualizes the proposition itself, then that's just shifting from fortune in the middle to fortune at the beginning, which is a real shift because you have to backfill what the proposition was in the first place, but that's not really doing what you've been focused on hitherto. [/QUOTE]
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