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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8929318" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I am going to borrow this post, by a participant in this thread, from another active thread:</p><p></p><p>There we have the issue in microcosm.</p><p></p><p>In the scenario Lanefan describes, engagement by the players with the fiction is extremely attenuated. All the action turns on parsing spell descriptions: how does Wall of Force interact with extra-dimensional spaces? what does Rope Trick permit when the rope is lowered down?</p><p></p><p>Contrast how (say) MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic would resolve it: the player of the caster makes a roll based around Sorcery, which would be opposed by the Doom Pool augmented by an appropriate descriptor from the Wall of Force trap. Or contrast the DW Bend Bars/Lift Gates that [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] has been describing - another way of getting through obstacles - which puts the state of the fiction ("Is it broken?" "Did you make noise?" "Have you taken a long time?") at the core of the situation.</p><p></p><p>In [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s recent post 230 he has focused on the integrity of the "competitive"/"gamist" play space. The point I'm making in this post might be relevant to that, or might be orthogonal to it. I'm still articulating my thoughts in response to [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] upthread (post 195), and Manbearcat's initial riff on that (post 198): that a traditional D&D MU/wizard has many abilities, particularly somewhere around 7th level and up, that permit the core unit of play to be reconceptualised while it is still ostensibly being resolved.</p><p></p><p>Campbell said "The reason to be disciplined about this is to maintain the integrity of the play space." I'm not sure if he meant the sort of competitive integrity Manbearcat is now focusing on, or something else. I'm not particularly focused on competitive integrity. Based on what Lanefan posted, it seems unlikely that escaping the Wall of Force trap by using Rope Trick damaged competitive integrity.</p><p></p><p>I'm focused on the difference between <em>The players engaging, via play, the situation that has been framed and in which their PCs find themselves</em> and <em>Reframing that situation not via play, but via the deployment of fiat abilities that don't actually require engaging the fiction via action declaration</em>. And the Rope Trick example illustrates what I have in mind - the players engage the spell rules, not the framed situation. As I posted upthread, the fact that we cover that in a fig leaf of fiction - that the wizard PC is consulting their knowledge of the arcane and is casting a spell - doesn't change how things are actually unfolding at the table.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8929318, member: 42582"] I am going to borrow this post, by a participant in this thread, from another active thread: There we have the issue in microcosm. In the scenario Lanefan describes, engagement by the players with the fiction is extremely attenuated. All the action turns on parsing spell descriptions: how does Wall of Force interact with extra-dimensional spaces? what does Rope Trick permit when the rope is lowered down? Contrast how (say) MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic would resolve it: the player of the caster makes a roll based around Sorcery, which would be opposed by the Doom Pool augmented by an appropriate descriptor from the Wall of Force trap. Or contrast the DW Bend Bars/Lift Gates that [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] has been describing - another way of getting through obstacles - which puts the state of the fiction ("Is it broken?" "Did you make noise?" "Have you taken a long time?") at the core of the situation. In [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s recent post 230 he has focused on the integrity of the "competitive"/"gamist" play space. The point I'm making in this post might be relevant to that, or might be orthogonal to it. I'm still articulating my thoughts in response to [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] upthread (post 195), and Manbearcat's initial riff on that (post 198): that a traditional D&D MU/wizard has many abilities, particularly somewhere around 7th level and up, that permit the core unit of play to be reconceptualised while it is still ostensibly being resolved. Campbell said "The reason to be disciplined about this is to maintain the integrity of the play space." I'm not sure if he meant the sort of competitive integrity Manbearcat is now focusing on, or something else. I'm not particularly focused on competitive integrity. Based on what Lanefan posted, it seems unlikely that escaping the Wall of Force trap by using Rope Trick damaged competitive integrity. I'm focused on the difference between [i]The players engaging, via play, the situation that has been framed and in which their PCs find themselves[/i] and [i]Reframing that situation not via play, but via the deployment of fiat abilities that don't actually require engaging the fiction via action declaration[/i]. And the Rope Trick example illustrates what I have in mind - the players engage the spell rules, not the framed situation. As I posted upthread, the fact that we cover that in a fig leaf of fiction - that the wizard PC is consulting their knowledge of the arcane and is casting a spell - doesn't change how things are actually unfolding at the table. [/QUOTE]
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