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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8931924" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s point is apposite here.</p><p></p><p>The boardgame Seven Wonders has "involved victory conditions" in the sense that there are multiple dimensions of play in which victory points can be accrued, and for relatively casual players the maths at any given moment (particularly at earlier stages of play) is not easily solvable to yield an obviously superior move. There's a contrast in this respect with, say, backgammon.</p><p></p><p>But if the victory condition is "light a signal fire on top of the mountain", achieving that victory consists precisely in everyone at the table agreeing that, in the fiction, some character or other has reached the top of the mountain and has lit a fire. Which is shared imagination. Given that, in a RPG, no participant has unilateral authority to stipulate either that the fiction does or does not contain such a state of affairs within it, it's <em>negotiated</em> imagination.</p><p></p><p>On top of [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s point:</p><p></p><p>I've played RPGs which do not involve unbounded play time. Agon is an example, with a formal structure to support its lack of unbounded play time (both at the session level and the "campaign" level). I've not played My Life With Master but believe it might be the first - certainly an early - example of a RPG with that sort of formal structure.</p><p></p><p>As well as formal structures to constrain play time, I've played RPGs with an understanding among all the participants that play time is not unbounded, and as the GM I've used my authority over the fiction to frame matters towards and then into a climax at the appropriate time.</p><p></p><p>I think in this particular post you are reiterating this point made by [USER=386]@LostSoul[/USER] a while ago now:</p><p></p><p>But anyway: one key point that I take [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] to be making, or at least pointing toward, in his discussions of Dungeon World and 4e D&D, is this: <em>who gets to decide whether balancing on a cloud, or any other feat of heroics, will help the PC achieve the goal that the player has set for the PC?</em></p><p></p><p>I think [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] is pointing toward something similar in his post upthread about the technical aspects of climbing, and genre logic.</p><p></p><p>At some tables, the answer is <em>the GM</em>. Some RPG systems - eg 3E and 5e D&D - tend to reinforce this answer in their rulebooks and in their procedures of play.</p><p></p><p>At some tables, the answer is <em>the table - both player(s) and GM</em>.Some RPG systems - eg BitD, DW, 4e D&D, Agon, Burning Wheel, MHRP - tend to reinforce this answer in their rulebooks and in their procedures of play.</p><p></p><p>It is possible to have a system with "objective" difficulties (like DC120 for balancing on a cloud) that otherwise fits in the second category of pointed to: Burning Wheel is an example. But in my experience that is aesthetic and has little relevance to player agency.</p><p></p><p>Suppose a player knows that, <em>should it be relevant to achieving their goal</em>, their PC in this game is almost certain to be able to climb any wall at full speed, one handed while wielding a weapon. How does that give them agency? Who decides the relationship between performing such a feat, and achieving any goal?</p><p></p><p>That is all about who gets to decide the content of the fiction - in framing, and then how performing certain feats in the fiction will allow certain goals to be achieved. Negotiated imagination.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8931924, member: 42582"] I think [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s point is apposite here. The boardgame Seven Wonders has "involved victory conditions" in the sense that there are multiple dimensions of play in which victory points can be accrued, and for relatively casual players the maths at any given moment (particularly at earlier stages of play) is not easily solvable to yield an obviously superior move. There's a contrast in this respect with, say, backgammon. But if the victory condition is "light a signal fire on top of the mountain", achieving that victory consists precisely in everyone at the table agreeing that, in the fiction, some character or other has reached the top of the mountain and has lit a fire. Which is shared imagination. Given that, in a RPG, no participant has unilateral authority to stipulate either that the fiction does or does not contain such a state of affairs within it, it's [i]negotiated[/i] imagination. On top of [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s point: I've played RPGs which do not involve unbounded play time. Agon is an example, with a formal structure to support its lack of unbounded play time (both at the session level and the "campaign" level). I've not played My Life With Master but believe it might be the first - certainly an early - example of a RPG with that sort of formal structure. As well as formal structures to constrain play time, I've played RPGs with an understanding among all the participants that play time is not unbounded, and as the GM I've used my authority over the fiction to frame matters towards and then into a climax at the appropriate time. I think in this particular post you are reiterating this point made by [USER=386]@LostSoul[/USER] a while ago now: But anyway: one key point that I take [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] to be making, or at least pointing toward, in his discussions of Dungeon World and 4e D&D, is this: [i]who gets to decide whether balancing on a cloud, or any other feat of heroics, will help the PC achieve the goal that the player has set for the PC?[/i] I think [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] is pointing toward something similar in his post upthread about the technical aspects of climbing, and genre logic. At some tables, the answer is [i]the GM[/i]. Some RPG systems - eg 3E and 5e D&D - tend to reinforce this answer in their rulebooks and in their procedures of play. At some tables, the answer is [i]the table - both player(s) and GM[/i].Some RPG systems - eg BitD, DW, 4e D&D, Agon, Burning Wheel, MHRP - tend to reinforce this answer in their rulebooks and in their procedures of play. It is possible to have a system with "objective" difficulties (like DC120 for balancing on a cloud) that otherwise fits in the second category of pointed to: Burning Wheel is an example. But in my experience that is aesthetic and has little relevance to player agency. Suppose a player knows that, [i]should it be relevant to achieving their goal[/i], their PC in this game is almost certain to be able to climb any wall at full speed, one handed while wielding a weapon. How does that give them agency? Who decides the relationship between performing such a feat, and achieving any goal? That is all about who gets to decide the content of the fiction - in framing, and then how performing certain feats in the fiction will allow certain goals to be achieved. Negotiated imagination. [/QUOTE]
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