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Critical Hits - why, and why not?
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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6678038" data-attributes="member: 6681948"><p>I think such a system would ideally be BAB-based, with a decision on which modifiers apply. For fumbles, I'd suggest weapon focus/specialization type bonuses should apply (representing skill) while STR bonuses (brute force) should not. Maybe a DEX bonus should always apply. For criticals, the roll to confirm is reasonable. I recall using a system some years back which used a % equal to the number of points you hit or missed by(minimum 1% chance), both on a natural 20 or 1, or on every hit.</p><p></p><p>There's a continuum again - any critical or fumble system adds a step, so it adds complexity to a system lacking criticals and fumbles.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To the first issue, I was simply thinking 11th level 3e warrior class. Different systems will have different numbers of attacks, of course, and different timeframes for rounds.</p><p></p><p>To the second, I was not envisioning a single combat, but a series of combats totaling the relevant time period. But if you want 120 swings (not rounds - each attack can be a crit or a fumble), it's quite easy - wave upon wave of kobolds charge the 11th level Warrior. In fact, that 11th level warrior surrounded by a swarm of kobolds or goblins in 1e is in trouble, Each kobold/goblin attacks once per round, so 8 attacks, with 1 in 20 rolling a nat 20, and 3 in 10 being critical, is 1 Crit in 67 shots - should be every 8th or 9th round as the horde of kobolds attack the mighty warrior. Maybe no big deal, since multiplying damage of the kobold probably isn't that big a threat.</p><p></p><p>But the fighter can attack up to 11 creatures of less than 1 HD per round, so he can swing on all eight every round. 1 in 20 rolls is a 1, with a 1 in 6 chance of a fumble, so he will fumble every 15 rounds, on average. So much for our skilled, experienced, trained warrior. Meanwhile, the kobolds, goblins or commoners would have to swing 120 times before they would fumble, so it will almost never happen. Objectively, they each fumble every 120 swings, so they are equal (which is bad enough), but they won't FEEL equal in play - it will feel like the warrior fumbles a lot, especially compared to other characters who have less martial skill.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Depends on what you do. If you just generate the character, scratch out III and write in IV behind the same name the last three had and carry on, generating a character won't take as long as if you invest some time fleshing out his background, history and personality. But the former isn't a character, just a playing pawn on the game board/battlemat. It's the background, history and personality that make those scribbled numbers a CHARACTER.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The system all comes back to impact the characters, though. How many swings will be taken on that one nameless foe in his entire on-stage game appearance? A few get hit with a crit and more rise to take their place. If he's just a nameless goblin, the PC crit was probably utterly meaningless - a normal hit would likely have taken him down. But the PC will be hit with a crit, on average, from every 67th attack against him. That's a lot, over (say) 10 levels. That multiplied damage can also mean the difference between "down, but can be save" and "dead", which is rarely if ever relevant for the PC's opponents.</p><p></p><p>Similarly, how many attacks will that nameless foe make in his entire in-game existence? PC's will make enough that they will experience numerous fumbles, and start to feel pretty incompetent over time. Like a poster noted upthread, picking up a collection of missing body parts doesn't feel cinematic. I recall one game with Crits and Fumbles where a frustrated player noted "we go out poor, seeking treasure. We come back, have to sell all the treasure and pawn a few of our own possessions to regenerate the losses from crits and fumbles". Not an issue for your "multiply the damage" system, at least, unless your fumbles have more grave consequences.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whether intentional ("When 6 crossbowmen say 'Drop your weapons and put your hands on your hands on your heads', I want those PC's to comply - we need critical hits to put that fear into them") or not ("Critical hits and fumbles make combat more exciting!"), the mechanics of the game influence the approaches taken by the players. Regardless of the reason for their addition, crits and fumbles make combat riskier. Players will play accordingly. Maybe that's good - they are more inclined to parley, use stealth and otherwise work to avoid combat, making the game more than hack and slash the monsters and steal their loot. Maybe it's not - players invest less effort bringing the characters to life because they're unlikely to last more than a few game sessions before falling to some random crit or fumble, no matter how skillfully they are played. But, for good or ill, mechanics change player behaviour.</p><p></p><p>You note yourself that avoiding combat is common sense, but if the intent is a cinematic, action movie feel, then trepidation about entering combat pulls against, rather than towards, the goal. Kind of like, if you want a real swashbuckler feel, then chandeliers can hold a character's weight - if the first few attempts to swing from one result in a PC on his butt with a chandelier falling on him, they won't do that again in a hurry!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Condemn? No. Identify that, in D&D, combat is more serious? Sure. The games are supposed to have a different tone. That said, the first time I played Hero System, I thought "wow - knockout rather than kill is a real possibility, not carefully contrived use of sub-optimal combat maneuver choices - kind of like how Conan gets beaten in combat, but awakens later, while D&D characters who fall in combat are dead unless quickly saved by a teammate". What source material are we trying to emulate, and what tropes from those materials to we want to emphasize? If I want the results of combat to be KO, as often or more often than Kill, then D&D is not the system to choose.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 6678038, member: 6681948"] I think such a system would ideally be BAB-based, with a decision on which modifiers apply. For fumbles, I'd suggest weapon focus/specialization type bonuses should apply (representing skill) while STR bonuses (brute force) should not. Maybe a DEX bonus should always apply. For criticals, the roll to confirm is reasonable. I recall using a system some years back which used a % equal to the number of points you hit or missed by(minimum 1% chance), both on a natural 20 or 1, or on every hit. There's a continuum again - any critical or fumble system adds a step, so it adds complexity to a system lacking criticals and fumbles. To the first issue, I was simply thinking 11th level 3e warrior class. Different systems will have different numbers of attacks, of course, and different timeframes for rounds. To the second, I was not envisioning a single combat, but a series of combats totaling the relevant time period. But if you want 120 swings (not rounds - each attack can be a crit or a fumble), it's quite easy - wave upon wave of kobolds charge the 11th level Warrior. In fact, that 11th level warrior surrounded by a swarm of kobolds or goblins in 1e is in trouble, Each kobold/goblin attacks once per round, so 8 attacks, with 1 in 20 rolling a nat 20, and 3 in 10 being critical, is 1 Crit in 67 shots - should be every 8th or 9th round as the horde of kobolds attack the mighty warrior. Maybe no big deal, since multiplying damage of the kobold probably isn't that big a threat. But the fighter can attack up to 11 creatures of less than 1 HD per round, so he can swing on all eight every round. 1 in 20 rolls is a 1, with a 1 in 6 chance of a fumble, so he will fumble every 15 rounds, on average. So much for our skilled, experienced, trained warrior. Meanwhile, the kobolds, goblins or commoners would have to swing 120 times before they would fumble, so it will almost never happen. Objectively, they each fumble every 120 swings, so they are equal (which is bad enough), but they won't FEEL equal in play - it will feel like the warrior fumbles a lot, especially compared to other characters who have less martial skill. Depends on what you do. If you just generate the character, scratch out III and write in IV behind the same name the last three had and carry on, generating a character won't take as long as if you invest some time fleshing out his background, history and personality. But the former isn't a character, just a playing pawn on the game board/battlemat. It's the background, history and personality that make those scribbled numbers a CHARACTER. The system all comes back to impact the characters, though. How many swings will be taken on that one nameless foe in his entire on-stage game appearance? A few get hit with a crit and more rise to take their place. If he's just a nameless goblin, the PC crit was probably utterly meaningless - a normal hit would likely have taken him down. But the PC will be hit with a crit, on average, from every 67th attack against him. That's a lot, over (say) 10 levels. That multiplied damage can also mean the difference between "down, but can be save" and "dead", which is rarely if ever relevant for the PC's opponents. Similarly, how many attacks will that nameless foe make in his entire in-game existence? PC's will make enough that they will experience numerous fumbles, and start to feel pretty incompetent over time. Like a poster noted upthread, picking up a collection of missing body parts doesn't feel cinematic. I recall one game with Crits and Fumbles where a frustrated player noted "we go out poor, seeking treasure. We come back, have to sell all the treasure and pawn a few of our own possessions to regenerate the losses from crits and fumbles". Not an issue for your "multiply the damage" system, at least, unless your fumbles have more grave consequences. Whether intentional ("When 6 crossbowmen say 'Drop your weapons and put your hands on your hands on your heads', I want those PC's to comply - we need critical hits to put that fear into them") or not ("Critical hits and fumbles make combat more exciting!"), the mechanics of the game influence the approaches taken by the players. Regardless of the reason for their addition, crits and fumbles make combat riskier. Players will play accordingly. Maybe that's good - they are more inclined to parley, use stealth and otherwise work to avoid combat, making the game more than hack and slash the monsters and steal their loot. Maybe it's not - players invest less effort bringing the characters to life because they're unlikely to last more than a few game sessions before falling to some random crit or fumble, no matter how skillfully they are played. But, for good or ill, mechanics change player behaviour. You note yourself that avoiding combat is common sense, but if the intent is a cinematic, action movie feel, then trepidation about entering combat pulls against, rather than towards, the goal. Kind of like, if you want a real swashbuckler feel, then chandeliers can hold a character's weight - if the first few attempts to swing from one result in a PC on his butt with a chandelier falling on him, they won't do that again in a hurry! Condemn? No. Identify that, in D&D, combat is more serious? Sure. The games are supposed to have a different tone. That said, the first time I played Hero System, I thought "wow - knockout rather than kill is a real possibility, not carefully contrived use of sub-optimal combat maneuver choices - kind of like how Conan gets beaten in combat, but awakens later, while D&D characters who fall in combat are dead unless quickly saved by a teammate". What source material are we trying to emulate, and what tropes from those materials to we want to emphasize? If I want the results of combat to be KO, as often or more often than Kill, then D&D is not the system to choose. [/QUOTE]
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