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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9629910" data-attributes="member: 18">You're actually seriously undermining your own point there. That's absolutely a grimdark thing to happen. No question about it. Grimdark applies to the bad guys too, there's absolutely grimdark fiction where bad or powerful and moral guys get absolutely bodied in seconds after think they're the &quot;king of the universe&quot; or w/e (Malazan has some examples, for one, I suspect Joe Abercrombie has some bad guys who absolutely go out like suckers too).You're confusing it with heroic fantasy, where that would never happen, and indeed, most heroic fantasy, the good guys wouldn't even interrupt the badguy's monologue, let alone absolutely body him in seconds!The fact that you find it funny is all about how the event was presented and what your expectations were. You were presumably expecting heroic fantasy with some grimdark tropes (which to be fair, is a much better description of 4E than &quot;grimdark&quot;, so not an unreasonable expectation), based on what you've said. What would really make it &quot;grimdark&quot; or not isn't &quot;demon lord gets absolutely bodied in seconds&quot;, that's 100% within the realms of grimdark possibility, it's whether killing him is really a victory, really anything more than a temporary respite. If killing him brings a thousand years of bounteous peace then... that's probably not grimdark. If killing him temporarily halts a war that might start up again next year or next generation or even next century, and maybe this time it's worse, then it could well be. Also, 4E still screwed up, but it screwed up because it failed to fulfil heroic fantasy tropes, not grimdark ones.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 9629910, member: 18"] You're actually seriously undermining your own point there. That's absolutely a grimdark thing to happen. No question about it. Grimdark applies to the bad guys too, there's absolutely grimdark fiction where bad or powerful and moral guys get absolutely bodied in seconds after think they're the "king of the universe" or w/e (Malazan has some examples, for one, I suspect Joe Abercrombie has some bad guys who absolutely go out like suckers too). You're confusing it with [I]heroic fantasy[/I], where that [I]would[/I] never happen, and indeed, most heroic fantasy, the good guys wouldn't even interrupt the badguy's monologue, let alone absolutely body him in seconds! The fact that you find it funny is all about how the event was presented and what your expectations were. You were presumably expecting heroic fantasy with some grimdark tropes (which to be fair, is a much better description of 4E than "grimdark", so not an unreasonable expectation), based on what you've said. What would really make it "grimdark" or not isn't "demon lord gets absolutely bodied in seconds", that's 100% within the realms of grimdark possibility, it's whether killing him is really a victory, really anything more than a temporary respite. If killing him brings a thousand years of bounteous peace then... that's probably not grimdark. If killing him temporarily halts a war that might start up again next year or next generation or even next century, and maybe this time it's worse, then it could well be. Also, 4E still screwed up, but it screwed up because it failed to fulfil heroic fantasy tropes, not grimdark ones. [/QUOTE]

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