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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 7877206" data-attributes="member: 53980">At level 20, the rogue with expertise and 10 Int is going to have a +1 greater than the wizard with 20 Int who is trained in Arcana. That's not much of a difference.The rogue (and bars) is the &quot;skill guy&quot;. They get to be better than other classes in their expertise. But in the end it is all theoretical. The rogue lacks one critical factor that means he will never match the wizard in magic. The 20th level wizard can cast 9th level spells, and the rogue will never be anywhere close to that. It's like the argument that a wizard with sword proficiency is just as good as the fighter. It seems true at first glance until you realize that the fighter will almost certainly have a higher strength and also gets fighting features the wizard doesn't (like extra attack and action surge).Finally, I've yet to see a rogue spend their expertise on Arcana. It's basically always Perception, Stealth, Deception, or Thieves Tools. Maybe it's different at your table, but I've never seen anyone pick Rogue just so that they could be a second rate mage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 7877206, member: 53980"] At level 20, the rogue with expertise and 10 Int is going to have a +1 greater than the wizard with 20 Int who is trained in Arcana. That's not much of a difference. The rogue (and bars) is the "skill guy". They get to be better than other classes in their expertise. But in the end it is all theoretical. The rogue lacks one critical factor that means he will never match the wizard in magic. The 20th level wizard can cast 9th level spells, and the rogue will never be anywhere close to that. It's like the argument that a wizard with sword proficiency is just as good as the fighter. It seems true at first glance until you realize that the fighter will almost certainly have a higher strength and also gets fighting features the wizard doesn't (like extra attack and action surge). Finally, I've yet to see a rogue spend their expertise on Arcana. It's basically always Perception, Stealth, Deception, or Thieves Tools. Maybe it's different at your table, but I've never seen anyone pick Rogue just so that they could be a second rate mage. [/QUOTE]

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