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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 6705484" data-attributes="member: 177">I don't think a single person here suggests otherwise.  We simply disagree with what counts as "some amount".Yes.  Now, reread the thread, and note how that the only person who has suggested we take that idea flatly was Grumpy, and when we pointed out some of the problems, he changed it. Here you are seemingly trying to tell us we shouldn't discuss the topic, and here we are, using discussion of the topic to bring out some amount of moderation of an extreme position.  Which of us is being more constructive?There is a musical, "1776", in which one of the founding fathers (Stephen Hopkins, of Rhode Island) notes: "Well, in all my years I ain't never heard, seen nor smelled an issue that was so dangerous it couldn't be talked about. "  While the historical man may not have said those words, the sentiment has value.  We can't even *talk* about it?Okay.  Fine.  You don't think it has value.  We got that.  But, you live in a world where others do think it is valid, and has value.  So, you're probably going to have to learn to live with it.The only freezing of the dialog I've seen has come from your attempt to reject the term.  The rest of us seemed to be doing just fine.  Grumpy came here looking for feedback, we gave it, and he actually took some of it.  Not all, but some.  That's not "frozen".  That motion.  You're the only one stuck in place.Yeah, but dude, if they don't at least occasionally bludgeon those in the privileged classes over the head, nothing *happens*.  If folks are gentle, kind, appeasing to your sensibilities, there's little motive to change.  I think history will show you that advancement on issues of racism, sexism, and other civil rights and equality always come at the price of someone feeling pretty darned uncomfortable.Monte Cook didn't find a good way to present his content until he was bludgeoned over the head with the error.  Betcha he won't make that mistake again!So, yes, we get bludgeoned with it.  We are made to feel guilty, ashamed, put upon when we feel we are innocent.  Guess what?  If we are worth what we think we are, we can handle it.  A bit of humble pie can be good for us.Interestingly, apple pie and fried chicken are *not* American.  You can find them in Italian 15th century cookbooks, among other European sources, with virtually the same recipes.  What we think of apple pie today is really... German, brought by the Pennsylvania Dutch.Tell that to Apple.  They have active look and feel suits going over cellphone design as we speak.Mind you, I must say (again, and so I put it in big letters so that I'm clear): I WAS NOT SUGGESTING WE LITERALLY USE COPYRIGHT LAW FOR THIS.It was merely the handy example of, "someone else created it, and you took it, and we already accept that can be problematic".  That's all.  That's as far as it goes.  You have spent many paragraphs (stalling the conversation, btw) on a strawman.I don't actually expect that point to get through, though.  One of the major issues with such discussions is that, if someone is confronted with that which they don't believe, they usually dig in and double-down on their commitment.  So, I don't actually expect you, personally, will accept a single thing I've said here.  With this post, I'm no longer trying to convince you, and I owe it to you to be honest about that.Some other reader, however, who isn't invested in the position, might see the point, and take it to heart.</blockquote>

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