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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ARandomGod" data-source="post: 2784734" data-attributes="member: 17296">Oh, come one, even if you're not going TWF take at least ONE level of ranger. Not only do you net better saves (your complaint), and a handful of useful skill points, but you can now use wands on the ranger spell list. Which includes Cure X Wounds spells. Cure wands have saved the party's collective buts more times than that PC can count (cause he dumped Int, but still). Ahem. Anyhow... I don't personally see the multiclassing being all that bad (or all that 'too good'). Certainly you CAN rack up massive saves, but that's only if you're looking to do that specifically, and it generally hurts the PC in other abilities. My Fighter/Ranger/Horizonwalker/ShadowDancer has some good saves, sure, but he's there for the abilities, and at level 9 his base will save is only +1. Of course, overall Fort/Reflex/Will is +9/+6/+1... or +16 total, compared to a monk's save (best straight class in the game) who has +18, well, that's pretty good, only two lower than the monk. Compared to a ranger (the class he most resembles, +15 total) it's still +1 save point more...However +1 to will saves? Even the will-pathetic barbarian or fighter has a +3 to will by then. A horrible Achilles heel. Surely you can't poison him, but you shouldn't be trying fort saves on a ranger type anyway. And his reflex saves are no better than that of a 'normal' ranger. He's going to end at level 20 with base saves of +14/+11/+6 (total 31). The character clearly has two strong saves and a weak one. Compare this to a +12/+12/+6 (total 30), the ranger ... Ok, so this massive multiclassed character has one more point of saves than a straight classed one would, and his lowest save is at least that of the ranger class. However for a lot of the formative period of his life he's been even more vulnerable to will saves than 'normal' (He's looking forward to level 10, he'll have +2! Which is where he'll stay until level 13).Can you get a lot of front loaded saves through multiclassing? Yes. However it's not that much, and you do give up a lot. A fighter dipping in for two levels of barbarian (as you meantioned above)... that nets you +3 total saves, and all on Fort. That fighter doesn't really NEED fort. And he gets +0 in Reflex AND will, the two saves he does need. A class with one strong save, gets approximately 1.16 save points per level, ignoring level one.A class with two strong saves get's approximately 1.37, and a class with three strong saves get's approzimately 1.58 "save points.So for a two level dip into barbarian you're getting three points? That's not much, and you're crippling your will and reflex saves at the same time.Of course, dipping for a couple of levels into Ranger, that's where you'll reap the "save points", pulling in a whopping 6 save points. Although once again you're crippling your will save. And what are you getting? TWF/Rapid shot? Sure, that's awesome if you want those things... but game-balance wise those aren't really the strongest feats, and you're definitely giving up a lot if those aren't the feats you want.Dip in for a couple of Monk levels you say? Jackpot! Those saves are awesome. However, now you're not only giving up a BAB, but you're once again restricting yourself in other ways. Sure you no longer see pure "archetype" characters in non-spellcasting classes anymore. But that's simply because there are more options, not because all those options are innately so much more powerful.</blockquote>

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