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<blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 2787297" data-attributes="member: 3051">Yes, you misunderstood me.&nbsp; I'm trying to point out that it's very popular to load up a single level of a high-skill class (Rogue or Ranger) at level 1, simply because of the x4 skill payoff, then switch to a less-skilled class with a more steady progression of benefits.&nbsp; If I've got a Wizard 15 who then takes a level of Rogue, he should be exactly as powerful as your character who took a level of Rogue at level 1 before taking 15 Wizard levels.&nbsp; But, under the current system, you're far better off one way than the other.Circular logic.&nbsp; I could just as easily say that the max rank is (level+3) because you get 4x skill points at level 1.&nbsp; (In fact, I'd say that direction makes far more sense.)&nbsp; If you remove the x4, then you can remove the +3 on max ranks.Three things to remember:1&gt; There's no such thing as a level 1 adventurer, so the 1-hit-kill problem doesn't exist.&nbsp; Adults start at level 3 (a level 1 person is a child), which makes them MORE survivable than a 3E level 1 character, especially if you've got a CON bonus.&nbsp; Even with a d4 hit die and no CON mod, you'd still average 7-8 HP.2&gt; You're losing three skill ranks off each skill, assuming you kept all your key stuff maxed.&nbsp; Some skill DCs were tweaked as a result, but not many.3&gt; We didn't change CRs.&nbsp; Remember that the enemies you face suffer the same limitations, so in most cases, both sides lose 6, 12, 18, or 24 skill points, and somewhere from 1.5 to 5.5 HP.&nbsp; Nothing else changes; you still have the same BAB, saves, class abilities, and so on.The differences come when you've got an animal/beast that only gets 1 skill point per level, where the player's drop starts to make a real difference.&nbsp; And there, we had a different rule to compensate; each race had a small &quot;racial skill&quot; list, and received 1 racial skill point per die that could be spent on those skills, even going above the normal max skill rank (effectively making the max (level+1)).&nbsp; So that helped make up for the loss of skill points earlier; by level 20, everyone had more skill ranks than under the old system, except Rogues.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatzimaus, post: 2787297, member: 3051"] Yes, you misunderstood me. I'm trying to point out that it's very popular to load up a single level of a high-skill class (Rogue or Ranger) at level 1, simply because of the x4 skill payoff, then switch to a less-skilled class with a more steady progression of benefits. If I've got a Wizard 15 who then takes a level of Rogue, he should be exactly as powerful as your character who took a level of Rogue at level 1 before taking 15 Wizard levels. But, under the current system, you're far better off one way than the other. Circular logic. I could just as easily say that the max rank is (level+3) because you get 4x skill points at level 1. (In fact, I'd say that direction makes far more sense.) If you remove the x4, then you can remove the +3 on max ranks. Three things to remember: 1> There's no such thing as a level 1 adventurer, so the 1-hit-kill problem doesn't exist. Adults start at level 3 (a level 1 person is a child), which makes them MORE survivable than a 3E level 1 character, especially if you've got a CON bonus. Even with a d4 hit die and no CON mod, you'd still average 7-8 HP. 2> You're losing three skill ranks off each skill, assuming you kept all your key stuff maxed. Some skill DCs were tweaked as a result, but not many. 3> We didn't change CRs. Remember that the enemies you face suffer the same limitations, so in most cases, both sides lose 6, 12, 18, or 24 skill points, and somewhere from 1.5 to 5.5 HP. Nothing else changes; you still have the same BAB, saves, class abilities, and so on. The differences come when you've got an animal/beast that only gets 1 skill point per level, where the player's drop starts to make a real difference. And there, we had a different rule to compensate; each race had a small "racial skill" list, and received 1 racial skill point per die that could be spent on those skills, even going above the normal max skill rank (effectively making the max (level+1)). So that helped make up for the loss of skill points earlier; by level 20, everyone had more skill ranks than under the old system, except Rogues. [/QUOTE]

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