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<blockquote data-quote="Pauln6" data-source="post: 9430575" data-attributes="member: 6777422">Yes but whenever you roll that check, the DM decides when it becomes relevant.It seems to me to that the term 'unless the enemy can somehow see you' is sufficiently broad and should apply where you are standing in plain sight in bright light in front of a target at the start of their turn.Unfortunately, the invisibility spell doesn't specify that any attempt to see you with normal/dark vision automatically fails or that the spell makes you transparent or grants you total concealment etc. So the problem seems to be more that what works for one doesn't work well for the other.&nbsp; All it does is state that speaking louder than a whisper doesn't lose you the invisible condition.There is also the issue that rolling moving silently into the invisible condition means that it has lost a lot of flavour.&nbsp;&nbsp; I will probably house rule that you need to move at half speed to retain it if that is the defining factor to remaining unnoticed (sleeping enemies etc).&nbsp; Sneaking up on enemies inside a room is now a DC 15 stealth check.&nbsp; Rogues can stealth as a bonus action and use help to assist one armoured group member.&nbsp; If the door is closed, passive perception would be at -5 (effectively a DC10 check).&nbsp; Does that sound about right.&nbsp; Even if you fail, your enemy still can't see you or target you due to total cover but they get the chance to make a DC15 stealth roll to get the drop on you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pauln6, post: 9430575, member: 6777422"] Yes but whenever you roll that check, the DM decides when it becomes relevant. It seems to me to that the term 'unless the enemy can somehow see you' is sufficiently broad and should apply where you are standing in plain sight in bright light in front of a target at the start of their turn. Unfortunately, the invisibility spell doesn't specify that any attempt to see you with normal/dark vision automatically fails or that the spell makes you transparent or grants you total concealment etc. So the problem seems to be more that what works for one doesn't work well for the other. All it does is state that speaking louder than a whisper doesn't lose you the invisible condition. There is also the issue that rolling moving silently into the invisible condition means that it has lost a lot of flavour. I will probably house rule that you need to move at half speed to retain it if that is the defining factor to remaining unnoticed (sleeping enemies etc). Sneaking up on enemies inside a room is now a DC 15 stealth check. Rogues can stealth as a bonus action and use help to assist one armoured group member. If the door is closed, passive perception would be at -5 (effectively a DC10 check). Does that sound about right. Even if you fail, your enemy still can't see you or target you due to total cover but they get the chance to make a DC15 stealth roll to get the drop on you. [/QUOTE]

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