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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6641347" data-attributes="member: 5834">Why would a player that figures out how to make his character as powerful as possible using the available game rules be the problem rather than the system? The player is making intelligent choices to create a concept he finds entertaining. The abuse is not something that requires a complex set of circumstances like say misreading a feat or a grouping of feats and spells that are insane like some of the looney stuff we saw in 3E/Pathfinder. Heck, even I realize that both feats power is minor compared to the crazy in 3E and Pathfinder. I'd like a little less spikey, nova damage in this edition. For the most part they removed it, but these feats brought it back.The problem occurs with something as simple as giving a GWF a +1 sword, casting bless, and using Action Surge with Battlemaster dice or a Paladin using his Vow of Enmity or a Barbarian using Reckless. These are very common circumstances in the game with any of the chosen classes. You can choose the combination that creates the issues I've outlined without even knowing you're doing it.You can say, &quot;Hey. I'm playing a vengeance paladin with a greatsword and taking GWF.&quot; Bada bing, bada boom, he's using Vow of Enmity to gain advantage, bless from the bard or cleric, and a +1 sword with smite for some nutty damage. If it were abuse, I'd just end it. It's pretty standardly played character types and tactics that allow a character to take full advantage of the feats. Not to mention the natural result of Bounded Accuracy. That is to say it is inherent in the game.That being said it is a matter of personal play-style if you mind the damage spikes or the overshadowing of TWF by archer and GWF. If you don't mind either one, you won't mind the feats.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6641347, member: 5834"] Why would a player that figures out how to make his character as powerful as possible using the available game rules be the problem rather than the system? The player is making intelligent choices to create a concept he finds entertaining. The abuse is not something that requires a complex set of circumstances like say misreading a feat or a grouping of feats and spells that are insane like some of the looney stuff we saw in 3E/[I]Pathfinder[/I]. Heck, even I realize that both feats power is minor compared to the crazy in 3E and [I]Pathfinder[/I]. I'd like a little less spikey, nova damage in this edition. For the most part they removed it, but these feats brought it back. The problem occurs with something as simple as giving a GWF a +1 sword, casting [I]bless[/I], and using Action Surge with Battlemaster dice or a Paladin using his Vow of Enmity or a Barbarian using Reckless. These are very common circumstances in the game with any of the chosen classes. You can choose the combination that creates the issues I've outlined without even knowing you're doing it. You can say, "Hey. I'm playing a vengeance paladin with a greatsword and taking GWF." Bada bing, bada boom, he's using Vow of Enmity to gain advantage, [I]bless[/I] from the bard or cleric, and a +1 sword with smite for some nutty damage. If it were abuse, I'd just end it. It's pretty standardly played character types and tactics that allow a character to take full advantage of the feats. Not to mention the natural result of Bounded Accuracy. That is to say it is inherent in the game. That being said it is a matter of personal play-style if you mind the damage spikes or the overshadowing of TWF by archer and GWF. If you don't mind either one, you won't mind the feats. [/QUOTE]

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