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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6642898" data-attributes="member: 5834">Let's try to sum this up.The Optimzer Group ArgumentYou lose no damage when not using the feats. You do the same as GWF or archer that doesn't use the feats. If the math shows it's bad to use them, don't. You should know the attack roll when it is bad to use either feat. You should not use them when that is the target roll to hit. When it is optimal to use them, use them. You should know the number when it is optimal to use either feat. By knowing your target numbers and using the feats when it is optimal, you'll end up doing the same damage as others in regular fights and doing far more when you use them skewing the damage in your favor.Now if some GWF or archer doesn't take either feat, he doesn't have this option. So he will fall behind in damage even if he uses a weapon that makes Sharpshooter or GWF a smaller percentage of damage. You're only using the feats when it is optimal to do so. So it's always a positive. Not having the feats given your fighting style leaves you without the option of using them making you inferior to a character with them.Other classes have no feat that allows them to spike damage. So they will never be able to increase damage in a similar fashion because the fighting style you chose or class does not have the option to do so. If you do not have the option, you cannot do it. Period. Thus the best you can do is equal the GWF or archer when he isn't using the feat. You never match his damage when they are using the feat. If you don't have the option of boosting your damage, you can't match the damage of someone with the feats. Thus the person with the feats will always over time do more damage, a rather substantial amount when the conditions are optimal for use. Dave and I believe these conditions occur often under normal play circumstances. Thus the feats are must haves that overshadow other fighting options in the game.The various other arguments against them being a problem:1. Most groups don't work out the math to the point where they know the numbers for optimal use.2. DMs can counter by making the numbers favor not using the feats.3. Most groups don't focus on optimizing for these feats.4. I don't care. Let the martials hammer with those feats.That seems to be the various views in this discussion.</blockquote>

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