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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6643659" data-attributes="member: 2011">I did mention that the Fighters could nova whereas the Rogue typically cannot. However, Rogues get the wonderful Uncanny Dodge and Evasion which allow them to stay in fights a long time. That does a lot more than the extra hit point per level that the Fighter gets from hit dice. Sure, an EK can do cool things with magic. So can an Arcane Trickster. Magical Ambush can allow for more damage, especially with an area effect spell. So can Versatile Trickster. Or Assassins. Death Strike. Assassinate (once per encounter at most, but it is still more damage that surprise round than the Fighter, and parties would try to assist such a PC to use his ability, at level 3 for a Rogue elf using a bow, that's 33 average points of damage when the level 3 Fighter is dishing out 11 during that surprise round).Ranged hiding Rogues can possibly set up advantage more often than Fighters and increase their damage that way as well (rarely missing). The fact remains that without feats, the Rogues are at least competitive. With feats, the melee types win hands down.Agreed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 6643659, member: 2011"] I did mention that the Fighters could nova whereas the Rogue typically cannot. However, Rogues get the wonderful Uncanny Dodge and Evasion which allow them to stay in fights a long time. That does a lot more than the extra hit point per level that the Fighter gets from hit dice. Sure, an EK can do cool things with magic. So can an Arcane Trickster. Magical Ambush can allow for more damage, especially with an area effect spell. So can Versatile Trickster. Or Assassins. Death Strike. Assassinate (once per encounter at most, but it is still more damage that surprise round than the Fighter, and parties would try to assist such a PC to use his ability, at level 3 for a Rogue elf using a bow, that's 33 average points of damage when the level 3 Fighter is dishing out 11 during that surprise round). Ranged hiding Rogues can possibly set up advantage more often than Fighters and increase their damage that way as well (rarely missing). The fact remains that without feats, the Rogues are at least competitive. With feats, the melee types win hands down. Agreed. [/QUOTE]

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