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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 6644190" data-attributes="member: 97077">I agree, players can't control whether or not a challenge exists - that's on the DM. They can, however, control difficulty by their choices, assuming it's a well-designed challenge. However, taking a chain of feats or making particular tactical choices to reduce difficulty to a level that isn't very fun for everyone and doesn't create a memorable story means the players have effectively &quot;lost&quot; at D&amp;D according to the Basic Rules.This is not a game that is necessarily &quot;won&quot; by being the biggest, baddest, most damage-dealing adventurer. Or by expending the least amount of resources. Or achieving all one's character goals. Or, heck, even surviving. It's &quot;won&quot; by having fun together and creating an exciting, memorable story. This requires the DM and players to make choices that allow for those two goals to happen. Sometimes that includes not making the most optimal choice.Of course, if one changes the goals of play to something else, such as &quot;overcoming the DM's challenges as easily as possible,&quot; &quot;having the highest DPR,&quot; or &quot;stealing the most spotlight,&quot; then one can set up other ways to &quot;win&quot; at D&amp;D. That's up to the table to decide, but naturally since the game wasn't designed with those goals of play in mind, issues may arise.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iserith, post: 6644190, member: 97077"] I agree, players can't control whether or not a challenge exists - that's on the DM. They can, however, control difficulty by their choices, assuming it's a well-designed challenge. However, taking a chain of feats or making particular tactical choices to reduce difficulty to a level that isn't very fun for everyone and doesn't create a memorable story means the players have effectively "lost" at D&D according to the Basic Rules. This is not a game that is necessarily "won" by being the biggest, baddest, most damage-dealing adventurer. Or by expending the least amount of resources. Or achieving all one's character goals. Or, heck, even [I]surviving[/I]. It's "won" by having fun together and creating an exciting, memorable story. This requires the DM and players to make choices that allow for those two goals to happen. Sometimes that includes not making the most optimal choice. Of course, if one changes the goals of play to something else, such as "overcoming the DM's challenges as easily as possible," "having the highest DPR," or "stealing the most spotlight," then one can set up other ways to "win" at D&D. That's up to the table to decide, but naturally since the game wasn't designed with those goals of play in mind, issues may arise. [/QUOTE]

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