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Message: <blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 1548164" data-attributes="member: 463">Oh, I agree of course that it's unfair & unfun to hit the party with EL+8 encounters out of nowhere, especially ones where you make it unclear what it is - 4 7th level Orc Barbarians ambushing 4 3rd level PCs, say.  Seeing 200 Orcs approaching from a distance is quite another matter - if the PCs choose to attack, of course they should die.IMC a CR20 BBEG, Harecules from Lost City of Gaxmoor, killed many,many 11th-13th level PCs at EL +8 or so.  However the PCs knew what they were up against when they (repeatedly) assaulted his lair; they'd already faced him in battle (with an army) several times, and they knew how tough he was.  It was tough on the players, but IMO fair.</blockquote>