Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D 2024 Player's Handbook Reviews
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9424948" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>It is using the inspiration off turn that is going to increase the length.</p><p></p><p>If they just reroll one attack when they miss then yes, then yes it wouldn't increase the time, but I don't see players doing that because then they are wasting an available ability.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said I hate it. I said I find it frustrating as a DM and I do think it is going to make the game noticibly slower.</p><p></p><p>I also think (and said) it will make the game more difficult for new players .... which is not the same as saying it is more difficult for a DM to run.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If they do that, but I don't think most players will. The whole class idea is about making it a reaction and the uses are more powerful when you do that. There is both a thematic and a mechanical reason for using it as a reaction.</p><p> </p><p>There are players who play against the subclass stereotype and intended design, but that is not typical.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are entire threads about how Silvery Barbs is horrible, annoying and slows down play and numerous abilities are going to be doing that kind of thing now. There are more threads saying combat now, using 2014 rules is a slog and takes too much time. The new system certainly is not going to take less time.</p><p></p><p>Doing more things is going to take more time.</p><p></p><p>Ignoring Monsters for a moment if you break up what players can do - action, move, bonus action, reaction, object interaction and what I will call free stuff (the last one not something mechanically in the rules that a PC can do but something that takes time at the table .... like lucky feat or asking the DM if you can do X or asking to explain things or sharpening your pencil). </p><p></p><p>A combat round takes as much time as it takes for all players to finish as many of those things as they are going to do. IF we break this down:</p><p></p><p>1. Action - There will not be more actions, however the actions, especially the attack action are more complex and will take more time to execute than they did before.</p><p>2. Move - the move has not significantly changed and will likely take the same amount of time.</p><p>3. Bonus Action - used more often</p><p>4. Reaction - used more often</p><p>5. Object Interaction - no difference</p><p>6. Free Stuff - most won't change but there are more things explicitly available in the rules.</p><p></p><p>This adds up to combat taking longer. A round of combat can't be the same time or less time if players are doing more things in a round AND the things they are doing are not less time and are in some cases more complicated and take more time. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Counting enemy reactions, I think that will be about the average and I think it is about 3 now. </p><p></p><p>If you are just looking at players I think it will go from 1-2 on average to 5 on average.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure and then the three you didn't attack use their other reactions. There are a lot more at will reactions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, but what you are more likely to have is a Tiefling Feylock, a Glamour Bard, a Fighter with Defensive Duelist, A Barbarian with PAM, and a Cleric with Shield.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It does change things quite a bit actually. Like you said they can only use a reaction to an attack if they get attacked. Having other options means they will have more opportunities. Getting more reaction options changes the number on reactions by raising the number of triggering conditions. The only time it does not change things is if you have already hit the ceiling and are capable of one reaction a round.</p><p></p><p>To put it another way - if your party of 6 is using less than 6 reactions per round then increasing the number of reaction triggers will increase the number of reactions they can take. The only time this is not true is when they are already saturated with an available reaction every round or when different reactions are triggered by the same condition (example Misty Escape and Hellish Rebuke).</p><p></p><p>For example, if my Feylock has Misty Escape and you hit them they can cast misty escape. If you hit them once every 3 rounds of combat they can cast it once every 3 rounds of combat which translates into about 1 reaction for that ability per combat. </p><p></p><p>If they can move off turn as a reaction because there is a Glamor Bard in the party, well now that is more reactions. We will call it 1 more time per combat they can use a reaction (it could mathematically be almost every single PC, almost every single round of combat, just from one Bard in the party but we will assume the Bard uses half their inspiration for other things).</p><p></p><p>Then let's give them Pole Arm master and now in addition they can attack anyone who approaches them. Let's say this happens three times per combat on average (pretty easily this considering interplay with Misty escape).</p><p></p><p>So now we went from 1 reaction per combat to one reaction per round by giving that Feylock 2 more things they can use a reaction on and one of them did not even come from their character build. At this point the player is saturated. They are using a reaction just about every round of combat and adding more things they could do will not increase it any more.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>One reaction per round to be specific. and this illustrates my point directly above.</p><p></p><p>Cutting Words was and still is a limited ability. If all that Bard had was cutting words she could use a reaction any time an enemy rolled up to her number of inspirations. Then that is all the reactions she could use .... so using 2014 that is about one reaction every two rounds of combat if she uses inspiration for nothing else (a bit higher on the 2024 Bard).</p><p></p><p>Ok so the Bard is using cutting words every other round. Now she is not using cutting words she can use shield if she is hit. And then if someone fails a saving throw she can use countercharm. So now it is more often than every other round. Probably not every single round with these three examples, but more often than if she did not have the other two reaction options.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>One or two more is a functional increase. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Something new that is added takes little time and resolves quickly = more time than it takes now.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9424948, member: 7030563"] It is using the inspiration off turn that is going to increase the length. If they just reroll one attack when they miss then yes, then yes it wouldn't increase the time, but I don't see players doing that because then they are wasting an available ability. I never said I hate it. I said I find it frustrating as a DM and I do think it is going to make the game noticibly slower. I also think (and said) it will make the game more difficult for new players .... which is not the same as saying it is more difficult for a DM to run. If they do that, but I don't think most players will. The whole class idea is about making it a reaction and the uses are more powerful when you do that. There is both a thematic and a mechanical reason for using it as a reaction. There are players who play against the subclass stereotype and intended design, but that is not typical. There are entire threads about how Silvery Barbs is horrible, annoying and slows down play and numerous abilities are going to be doing that kind of thing now. There are more threads saying combat now, using 2014 rules is a slog and takes too much time. The new system certainly is not going to take less time. Doing more things is going to take more time. Ignoring Monsters for a moment if you break up what players can do - action, move, bonus action, reaction, object interaction and what I will call free stuff (the last one not something mechanically in the rules that a PC can do but something that takes time at the table .... like lucky feat or asking the DM if you can do X or asking to explain things or sharpening your pencil). A combat round takes as much time as it takes for all players to finish as many of those things as they are going to do. IF we break this down: 1. Action - There will not be more actions, however the actions, especially the attack action are more complex and will take more time to execute than they did before. 2. Move - the move has not significantly changed and will likely take the same amount of time. 3. Bonus Action - used more often 4. Reaction - used more often 5. Object Interaction - no difference 6. Free Stuff - most won't change but there are more things explicitly available in the rules. This adds up to combat taking longer. A round of combat can't be the same time or less time if players are doing more things in a round AND the things they are doing are not less time and are in some cases more complicated and take more time. Counting enemy reactions, I think that will be about the average and I think it is about 3 now. If you are just looking at players I think it will go from 1-2 on average to 5 on average. Sure and then the three you didn't attack use their other reactions. There are a lot more at will reactions. Yeah, but what you are more likely to have is a Tiefling Feylock, a Glamour Bard, a Fighter with Defensive Duelist, A Barbarian with PAM, and a Cleric with Shield. It does change things quite a bit actually. Like you said they can only use a reaction to an attack if they get attacked. Having other options means they will have more opportunities. Getting more reaction options changes the number on reactions by raising the number of triggering conditions. The only time it does not change things is if you have already hit the ceiling and are capable of one reaction a round. To put it another way - if your party of 6 is using less than 6 reactions per round then increasing the number of reaction triggers will increase the number of reactions they can take. The only time this is not true is when they are already saturated with an available reaction every round or when different reactions are triggered by the same condition (example Misty Escape and Hellish Rebuke). For example, if my Feylock has Misty Escape and you hit them they can cast misty escape. If you hit them once every 3 rounds of combat they can cast it once every 3 rounds of combat which translates into about 1 reaction for that ability per combat. If they can move off turn as a reaction because there is a Glamor Bard in the party, well now that is more reactions. We will call it 1 more time per combat they can use a reaction (it could mathematically be almost every single PC, almost every single round of combat, just from one Bard in the party but we will assume the Bard uses half their inspiration for other things). Then let's give them Pole Arm master and now in addition they can attack anyone who approaches them. Let's say this happens three times per combat on average (pretty easily this considering interplay with Misty escape). So now we went from 1 reaction per combat to one reaction per round by giving that Feylock 2 more things they can use a reaction on and one of them did not even come from their character build. At this point the player is saturated. They are using a reaction just about every round of combat and adding more things they could do will not increase it any more. One reaction per round to be specific. and this illustrates my point directly above. Cutting Words was and still is a limited ability. If all that Bard had was cutting words she could use a reaction any time an enemy rolled up to her number of inspirations. Then that is all the reactions she could use .... so using 2014 that is about one reaction every two rounds of combat if she uses inspiration for nothing else (a bit higher on the 2024 Bard). Ok so the Bard is using cutting words every other round. Now she is not using cutting words she can use shield if she is hit. And then if someone fails a saving throw she can use countercharm. So now it is more often than every other round. Probably not every single round with these three examples, but more often than if she did not have the other two reaction options. One or two more is a functional increase. Something new that is added takes little time and resolves quickly = more time than it takes now. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D 2024 Player's Handbook Reviews
Top