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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9480522" data-attributes="member: 6801228">It does matter, it is in fact the entire point. It was brought up that the design of the 2024 Warlock was "obviously" a bad design because 1) The player was not allowed to know who their patron was 2) The DM was not allowed to know who the player's patron was 3) Therefore the Patron could not show up in the first few sessions. We of course pointed at that this is not true. You CAN know these things, you CAN have the patron show up, and in fact, the Warlock player themselves can RP the patron. This started an entire new spiral about how selling your soul to the devil means you are in conflict with your patron, so you can't RP them... to which a complete counter point is "not all warlocks sell their souls to devils and not all warlocks are in conflict with their patron" Yes, the Patron/Warlock relationship can cause conflict, and yes, it is more likely to cause conflict than a Cleric/God relationship or Druid/Nature Spirit relationship. But "more likely" isn't "absolutely will". So it is not an unreasonable assertion that this issue of the conflict may not prevent the RP. Yes, the expectation is that the GM would RP the Patron. But as you yourself say, and as has been literally my main point YOU CAN DO IT OTHERWISE. It is an OPTION to have someone else RP the Patron. A thing which people keep pushing back against and saying you cannot or should not do. And this brings us all the way back to the level 3 complaint, which you state as such "It is just that if they choose the patron at level three like the book suggests, this is a tad more difficult." Which... yeah a tad seems pretty apt. Like 3% more difficult, maybe. Because you can choose your patron before level 3. You just don't choose your subclass. It is even possible that a player will come to you having said they want a fey patron, then choose the fiend pact ofr the mechanics and ask to reflavor. And I know some people are currently reacting with horror and disgust. A player REFLAVORING their class to fit their concept? That makes nothing ever matter to anyone because it ruins everything! But... it could happen. And be okay. And so, I really don't think it even rises to the level of a concern that the mechanical subclass got pushed to level 3. Because it won't really change anything.Sure, but you have to remember that for every warlock story where a warlock is de-powered or harmed for going against their pact, there is a story of the warlock giving their patron the middle finger as they burn their plans around them, and the patron being powerless to stop them because of the same pact. This isn't even a two way street, it is a multi-lane highway with loops.There wasn't any better guidance 10 years ago, and people did just fine. Maybe, it is fine? Like, this isn't an issue that people are running into, at all?</blockquote>

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