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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9504112" data-attributes="member: 87792">And if I run regular open tables and pickup groups currently in three different clubs where I'm the only common member and with new DMs and don't get these problems at what point does it cease to be luck? I don't believe myself to be that consistently lucky.Given this I have only two possibilities. Firstly that it's not luck but environment and that you are in the middle of a foetid swamp. Secondly that it's not luck but skill.I've been around a lot more veterans than newbies. And I've been around more toxic people than I'd like.I'm just wondering where you get the idea that your lived experiences are representative of anything other than your environment and the way people respond to the way you do things.At this point the questions are &quot;why are our environments so different?&quot;, &quot;what are we doing differently?&quot; and &quot;what can you learn from me to have an experience more like mine?&quot;Honestly this response smacks of you being in denial. I am not dismissing&nbsp; the idea of them. I am suggesting that they are a predictable consequence of bad, overbearing DMing. And that we should treat the cause (bad DMing) not the symptom (players fighting for breathing room).I'm not dismissing their lived experiences. I'm saying their lived experiences are at least in part a consequence of their actions.As I have said, I've seen about as many toxic DMs as toxic players in absolute terms so think the proportion is way higher Or it has been a reaction to DMing practices you do not consider toxic that actually are. Remember that it's much harder to fire a DM for toxicity than it is a player I haven't said that. Especially as bad and toxic aren't the same thing. But part of the DM's job is helping players grow.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 9504112, member: 87792"] And if I run regular open tables and pickup groups currently in three different clubs where I'm the only common member and with new DMs and don't get these problems at what point does it cease to be luck? I don't believe myself to be that consistently lucky. Given this I have only two possibilities. Firstly that it's not luck but environment and that you are in the middle of a foetid swamp. Secondly that it's not luck but skill. I've been around a lot more veterans than newbies. And I've been around more toxic people than I'd like. I'm just wondering where you get the idea that your lived experiences are representative of anything other than your environment and the way people respond to the way you do things. At this point the questions are "why are our environments so different?", "what are we doing differently?" and "what can you learn from me to have an experience more like mine?" Honestly this response smacks of you being in denial. I am not dismissing the idea of them. I am suggesting that they are a predictable consequence of bad, overbearing DMing. And that we should treat the cause (bad DMing) not the symptom (players fighting for breathing room). I'm not dismissing their lived experiences. I'm saying their lived experiences are at least in part a consequence of their actions. As I have said, I've seen about as many toxic DMs as toxic players in absolute terms so think the proportion is way higher Or it has been a reaction to DMing practices you do not consider toxic that actually are. Remember that it's much harder to fire a DM for toxicity than it is a player I haven't said that. Especially as bad and toxic aren't the same thing. But part of the DM's job is helping players grow. [/QUOTE]

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