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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 9504121" data-attributes="member: 8461">Certainly that doesn't approach anywhere near the point where it ceases to be luck. I mean, I suppose you can consider yourself representative of the state of things for everyone, everywhere, but given that it's incredibly unlikely that you've come anywhere close to interacting with even 0.1% of players (new or established), then I think you're going to have to resign yourself to the idea that you're not emblematic of anything about the hobby as a whole, and so can't hold yourself up as any sort of example.The problem, of course, is that it's not "given this," as noted above. Since you yourself said that you're not any sort of paragon, we can discount skill on your part. Likewise, since you're the only one claiming that your experiences represent the state of things, whereas more than one person has said you're wrong, we can likewise dismiss any idea of there being a "swamp" which no one else dwells in.Which is again you making this about you. It's not. Try to keep that in mind going forward.Unlike you, I never held up my experiences as being representative of anything except myself. Maybe you should take a lesson from that?No, because that's not the discussion we're having. The discussion we're having is "what to do about 'tyranny of fun' players." If you have nothing substantive to add to that discussion, which you don't seem to, then maybe the best thing for you to do is bow out. Simply saying "there are no bad players, only bad DMs" isn't any kind of helpful contribution, and instead simply derails things for those of us who're trying to actually have a discourse.Oh, the irony here...And I am suggesting that this is a deflection of the problem, by saying that it's not actually the players at all, despite that being what's under discussion. Personally, I believe in player agency, and that if someone is acting toxic, that's on them, rather than it not being their fault because someone else is necessarily having a power trip.And given that other people are a better judge of their own actions than some rando on the Internet, I don't think this idea of yours holds up.That's nice for you, but again, stop thinking that your experiences are any indicator of anything except your personal circumstances and situation. "I've never seen a bad player who wasn't just reacting to a bad DM" is a statement about yourself, not the wider hobby.This is another deflection on your part. No one is denying that there are bad DMs, but that's not the subject under discussion. If you think that there are no bad players, only reactions to bad DMs, that's your opinion, but it means you're not able to participate meaningfully in a discussion which doesn't come from that premise (as this one doesn't).Leaving aside the quibbling over definitions, the idea that the DM has a responsibility to help players "grow" strikes me as imbuing DMs with a great deal of moral authority, and so is prime to create the bad DMs you claim to despise. (And, of course, it's also yet another separate discussion.)</blockquote>

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