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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9437450" data-attributes="member: 6801228">But as people keep saying the grapple and grater strategy was ALREADY in the game. Spike growth is a 2nd level spell, so let's say lv 3. Play a Rogue with expertise in athletics. Grab enemy that the spike growth was cast around, double dash even with half speed is 30 or 35 (depending on species choice) and that is an average of 30-35 damage. Make that Rogue a Tabaxi and it is an average of 60 damage. Have a caster at 5th level cast haste on them and that is 120 damage. Sure, now a monk at 4th level with a specific feat is going to deal 80 damage... IF THE ENEMY FAILS THE SAVE. Which is a HUGE change, because the enemy used to have no realistic chance of defending against this. And on the high end... as someone mentioned, in 5e with no realistic chance to defend, a Bard with expertise, Find Greater Steed, and Haste on the stead can deal 360 damage. Which the 5.5 monk... can't really copy. They max out at 240 with haste. It has ALWAYS been the same problem, and while it sucks it wasn't addressed... it kind of was since the monsters actually stand a chance to resist a grapple now.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9437450, member: 6801228"] But as people keep saying the grapple and grater strategy was ALREADY in the game. Spike growth is a 2nd level spell, so let's say lv 3. Play a Rogue with expertise in athletics. Grab enemy that the spike growth was cast around, double dash even with half speed is 30 or 35 (depending on species choice) and that is an average of 30-35 damage. Make that Rogue a Tabaxi and it is an average of 60 damage. Have a caster at 5th level cast haste on them and that is 120 damage. Sure, now a monk at 4th level with a specific feat is going to deal 80 damage... IF THE ENEMY FAILS THE SAVE. Which is a HUGE change, because the enemy used to have no realistic chance of defending against this. And on the high end... as someone mentioned, in 5e with no realistic chance to defend, a Bard with expertise, Find Greater Steed, and Haste on the stead can deal 360 damage. Which the 5.5 monk... can't really copy. They max out at 240 with haste. It has ALWAYS been the same problem, and while it sucks it wasn't addressed... it kind of was since the monsters actually stand a chance to resist a grapple now. [/QUOTE]

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