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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9440087" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Even if you want to take a character to level 20, your argument of "but this is worse if I don't want the martial class to make weapon attacks" is a poor argument.Two abilities that were classically unused by the majority of ranger players. Kind of like saying the Monk who wants to use Breath of Winter or Eternal Mountain Defense is SOL.Looks pretty good until 20th level... Just like the ranger class.Yeah, except that logic doesn't really pan out. Sure, make Hunter's Mark a non-action that activates on an attack... and Misty Step is in conflict with Nature's Veil which is in conflict with the TWF Bonus action, which you aren't using because you used shillelagh, which is a bonus action and conflicts with all of that the exact same way. So even if we gave your solution, the problem you are talking about would still exist. And yeah, if you aren't dual-wielding and don't have Misty step.... then it is really Hunter's Mark or Nature's Veil, and that isn't a conflict, it is a choice. Just like Dodging doesn't conflict with attacking, they are choices.... You don't think that a high level ranger will take the attack action, and if they are a dual-wielder make 4 attacks? And what does concentrating on a spell have to do with that? Are you not allowed to take the attack action if you are ocncentrating on a spell?You did.Okay. And? There are better spells than Detect Magic at high level too, Wizard's still can use their 18th level feature to get free castings of it. And, maybe, someone disagrees with you and thinks all those attacks at advantage are worth the 1st level spell slot and concentration. Or maybe they have enough fights that they use those higher level spells and instead decide to use a weaker spell, you don't pull out your finishing move on every single fight in a long day.No, you are not.You can say whatever, but I know any ranger playing at my table would not have been allowed to use that exploit. So, the design is not a nerf from the perspective of the average player.No, my math is still correct for what I was demonstrating.Ah, it seems I was wrong on that one. Apologies, I am not sure what class was in my brain to give a 15th level ability. It was 17th level.So we are not discussing it. If it isn't the cause of the "bad design" then it isn't part of the discussion any more than Favored Terrain.You can still use those other spells. Having two dead levels, at high level, give a boost to a spell does not suddenly chain you to using that spell and nothing else. And for the vast majority of the ranger's career it is only some extra castings.Okay, and I used Hunter's Mark more than Hail of Thorns. And I used Hail of thorns more than Favored Foe.But it is your entire focus. Your entire focus is that you played two rangers who chose not to make weapon attacks, and now Hunter's Mark has some free castings and a few late game buffs, so now you feel compelled to use weapons and fight in melee and ignore all the better spells or otherwise.... something something something. And the funniest part to me? You are so upset about these 4 abilities tied to hunter's mark... and so the six NEW abilities on the base ranger mean nothing. Ranger spells got improved? Who cares, you only care about Hunter's Mark. Weapon Masteries open a bunch of options? Who cares, you only care about Hunter's Mark. The subclasses are generally improved and tighter in design? Toss them in the trash, you only care about Hunter's Mark. It is wild to me how easily people get tunnel vision on these things.</blockquote>

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