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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 655465" data-attributes="member: 4937">I agree that the outsiders, especially the Devils, in general where to weak to offer an appropriate challenge to PC parties of the level thier CR indicated.  On the other hand, I feel that the Dragons where tougher than their CR indicated.   So, I'm not unhappy to see that some minor changes are occuring to correct this.  Outsider's do probably need a boost to become reasonable challenges.  Dragon CR probably does need to go up.  But that doesn't mean I'm thrilled about the particular changes in question.   1) The attribute increases are only slightly short of insane.  A Pit Fiends attributes should be roughly on par with the best unmodified attributes of a typical 16th level character, with the exception of STR and CON.  That is to say, a pit fiend ought to be no more agile than a 16th level thief sans attribute boosting items, no more intelligent than a 16th level wizard, etc.  Because of size, STR should be about +8 above a 16th level unraging barbarian.  This is in my opinion necessary for a since of heroism.  With the exception of CON, all the stats are unnecessarily about +6 too high, and out of scale with all other published material on dieties, outsiders, and what not.2) In general, the increases in attributes and other features seem to be intended to balance the creature against only the most tricked-out, well equiped min/maxed, using-all-the-splat-books, fighting for every edge teflon characters.  That really bothers me.  The SR climb in particular is worrisome, even assuming that's not a type and it shouldn't be SR 36.  I do hope that the CR of the creature (or whatever system replaces CR because CR needs a whole lot more revision than the Pit Fiend ever did) raises to the more appropriate 19 or 20 that it looks like to me.   Or maybe the new CR system will assume a party of six characters instead of 4.  Who knows.</blockquote>

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