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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 656606" data-attributes="member: 1363">Now THAT'S thinking high-level play!!!&nbsp; And, no, probably not on most days. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool&nbsp; &nbsp; :cool:"&nbsp; data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> &nbsp;According to the way the CR/EL system works.&nbsp; Yep.&nbsp; Granted, the Pit Fiends are tougher in many aspects, particulalry their well-roundedness.&nbsp; However, our party is better in each respective area (Fighter, Arcane Spellcaster, Rogue, and Cleric) and furthermore will probably have even more synergy because of the way they work together better.Having said that, I would have no problem conceding certain key strengths to the Pit Fiends in comparison (Meteor Swarm, High SR, Special Qualities, and Insanely High Attributes).&nbsp;A match?&nbsp; 16th Level Party against an EL 20 encounter.&nbsp; The party could win, but they'd need luck and decent prep to do it.&nbsp; More often than not, however, I think the mortality rate would exceed 50% for that kind of encounter.&nbsp; &nbsp;Hmmm....Tempest, page 193, CR16324 hp24 AC (Ok, that blows, no pun intended...really)4 attacks doing 2d8+13 (21x4 = 84 hp avg capacity in melee)Only good save: FortSQ: Elemental, DR 15/+2, Str 29, Con 28, the rest crapWhirlwind Ability...which is sickSo, in comparison...the Pit Fiend is far more well rounded, however the damage capabilties are very similar, and the tempest has a wicked-tough damage shield that deals damage AND negates without a save Ref DC31!&nbsp; This effectively takes out most front line melee PC's!&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Tetramorph on the next page is in the same ballpark.&nbsp; Awful AC, 300+ hp, SR 32 (sounds familiar), and a wicked tough attack effect (Entropic Touch).&nbsp; Most of the MM2 monsters have one really sick ability, and a variety of defenses that would be required at the appropriate CR level to &quot;compete&quot;.Don't get me wrong.&nbsp; I'm not saying EVERY CR16 should look like the Pit Fiend.&nbsp; No, I want the Pit Fiend to be the high end of CR16 (much like the Dragons of appropriate age category).&nbsp; However, all CR16 creatures need to look much closer to this Pit Fiend, than to what was published originally in MM.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 656606, member: 1363"] Now THAT'S thinking high-level play!!! And, no, probably not on most days. :cool: According to the way the CR/EL system works. Yep. Granted, the Pit Fiends are tougher in many aspects, particulalry their well-roundedness. However, our party is better in each respective area (Fighter, Arcane Spellcaster, Rogue, and Cleric) and furthermore will probably have even more synergy because of the way they work together better. Having said that, I would have no problem conceding certain key strengths to the Pit Fiends in comparison (Meteor Swarm, High SR, Special Qualities, and Insanely High Attributes). A match? 16th Level Party against an EL 20 encounter. The party could win, but they'd need luck and decent prep to do it. More often than not, however, I think the mortality rate would exceed 50% for that kind of encounter. Hmmm.... Tempest, page 193, CR16 324 hp 24 AC (Ok, that blows, no pun intended...really) 4 attacks doing 2d8+13 (21x4 = 84 hp avg capacity in melee) Only good save: Fort SQ: Elemental, DR 15/+2, Str 29, Con 28, the rest crap Whirlwind Ability...which is sick So, in comparison...the Pit Fiend is far more well rounded, however the damage capabilties are very similar, and the tempest has a wicked-tough damage shield that deals damage AND negates without a save Ref DC31! This effectively takes out most front line melee PC's! Tetramorph on the next page is in the same ballpark. Awful AC, 300+ hp, SR 32 (sounds familiar), and a wicked tough attack effect (Entropic Touch). Most of the MM2 monsters have one really sick ability, and a variety of defenses that would be required at the appropriate CR level to "compete". Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying EVERY CR16 should look like the Pit Fiend. No, I want the Pit Fiend to be the high end of CR16 (much like the Dragons of appropriate age category). However, all CR16 creatures need to look much closer to this Pit Fiend, than to what was published originally in MM. [/QUOTE]

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