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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 663844" data-attributes="member: 7211">Well, I dont have the books with the iconics in them (although it appears that book will be somewhat out of date as well) but could you post the 15th level version of the iconic wizard?And were you kidding with GSP not being obvious for a cleric? What feats do clerics take? They get ~2 feats at first level from domains, and a feat at first level. Once again, if you have access to the iconics, please post the 15th level iconic cleric (or at least his feats and stats).If you assume the PCs are unoptimized or even purposely built weakly than the CR system will no doubt not aid you much. Similarly, if your players arent familiar with how the game works, the system is pretty useless.As far as forbiddance, considering we're talking about 16th level characters, sure lets assume they have a few thousand gold lying around (or easily obtainable from an NPC on loan, or in exchange for dealing with a Lord of the Hells coming to town). Needless to say, all of these SR saves the fiend is making, hes gonna fail one eventually.I dont understand youre comparison to  this 2HD monster...it doesnt make sense. Youre assuming an entirely linear system, and any system with spells that arent all balanced at the same level somewhat assumes that things wont be linear. Or at least not entirely linear to the extent its a little insulting to see that at the end of your post.Technik</blockquote>