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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 665746" data-attributes="member: 3146">I suppose it may be a little insulting. However, the point is that there is usually a chance for PCs to take down even significantly more powerful foes in round 1 with a save or die spell. That's what save or die spells are good for.Consequently to speculate that it would be possible for a nearly perfectly optimized 16th level wizard to take down Mr. Pit fiend in one round with a pair of 8th level save or dies does not constitute evidence that CR 16 is an appropriate rating for the Baatezu.In fact, the evidence is exactly the opposite. The 2HD monster (my reductio ad absurdium example) example is obviously not CR 1 just because an optimized wizard can (35% chance) take him down in round 1 with a save or die. Similarly, a 6th level fiendish cleric is not CR 3 because a 3rd level cleric stands a 25% chance or so of taking him down with a hold person spell. Nor is a 20th level rogue CR 11 because an optimized wizard stands a good chance of taking him down in round 1 with a Finger of Death.Consequently, it doesn't tell us much of anything about the Pit Fiend's CR that a nearly perfectly optimized 16th level wizard stands a 25% chance of taking him down with a heightened disintegrate and also has a chance of weakening him with a quickened polymorph.The point isn't that a 16th level party couldn't defeat this pit fiend but rather that defeating the pit fiend is likely to take up more than 20% of their resources.Well, that and also that the rules shouldn't assume a perfectly optimized party when figuring CRs. (Just assuming a balanced party makes them unrealistic for many games).</blockquote>

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