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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Melriken" data-source="post: 668420" data-attributes="member: 10226">Yes, I agree.  I personaly almost always play wizards, and I would NEVER play a red wizard (and if I did it would me more for the circle ability then the spell power).  However the objection was not that red wizards are cool, but that other people were making the clame that:when the wizard they are refering to is NOT pushed to the limit on the points that he is 'optimized' to.  The fact of the matter is that you can build a 16th level wizard with a good chance of droping that fiend on round one. (+5 spell power, +4 greater spell focus, 8th level dicenigrate, 18 int, +6 headband, +4 level, +4 inherint (not likely, but *possible*) = 30dc, and +25 caster level check, thus the fiend needs an 11 save, and the caster needs a 7 SR check, thus 50% and 70% or a 35% chance that the fiend dies to the first spell first round)my argument is not that you will ever see such a character, but simply that the one listed earlyer was NOT optimized, but mearly a nice solid wizard (something I would view as what an Iconic Wizard should be.)The last time I ran a higher level game the normal encounters were CR 3-4 above the groups level, and the big fights were 6 above the party simply because no encounter at thier level even phased them, they walked over it and kept going, no one took significant damage (the fighter had 90%+ HP remaining, and none of the casters had taken damage and had most spells left)I would peg the CR for this pit fiend at 17, possibly 18 or 16.  I dont think it is something that a party of level 16 characters couldnt take out.paladin with spirited charge, a lance, a horse, a good strength, True Strike from a ring of spell storing, power attack, and charging with rinohide armor... hmm, 16 smite, 16 power attack, 10 str, 7 (+5 holy evil outsider bane lance) 1 moral (well, +2 a lot, but +1 will do (emotion, bard singing, cleric spell, ect)) = +50 damage, weapon does 4x damage so we have 200 + 4d6 + 4 x 1d8 damage? attack bonus is +16 level - 16 power attack + 20 true strike + 2 charge + 6 cha (smite) +7 enhancement +10 str = +45 to hitHmm, hits on a 2, does average 232... yeah that would be a dead pit fiendthe paladin would need haste from the wizard or an item, but it is again possible for a level 16 character to kill the fiend in ONE ROUND.  will you see characters like this much? NO.  Do they exist? Yes.I personaly think that the new pit fiend should be CR 17, it is a little strong at 16, but I do NOT think it should be 20, it would be a pushover again...as to people asking what is easyer, changing the listed CR or the stats... well that depends on how the monster has been used.Do Modulesa: say, I need a CR 16 monster, should be an evil outsider... hmm, Pit Fiend would work.-or-b: hmm, I need something that will chalange the party... hmm after looking at the stats of all the monsters, and runing sample combats I think that the most appropriate chalange would be a pit fiend.well the point of the CR system is that people want to do (a) and thus for the CR to mean what it should then you need to change the stats to match the CR so that older modules are still compatable (unless they have been build assuming that the Pit Fiend was NOT CR 16, but actually the CR 14 or less that it deserved)</blockquote>

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