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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Melriken" data-source="post: 671129" data-attributes="member: 10226">Much better argument.  No, the Wizard really doesnt prove anything, building one character of each class that could kill the pit fiend alone with around 50% success might, but I really dont feel like it, and am not familiar enough with all the classes to do it easily.  And even if I did do it, it would only prove that the Fiend was CR 16 in power gaming, not in standard play.Actually I think that Iconic Wizards should have 16+int, 12+ dex, spell focus, spell penetration, one or two metamagic feats (like Highten spell, empower, or extend spell), have a decent to good Int bonus item, and at some point use wish to raise thier int.do I think all wizards need greater focus/pen? no.Do I think that the Iconic wizard Must have greater focus/pen? No.Do I think that it would be reasonable for the Iconic Wizard to have one of the two? Yes.Do I think it would be reasonable for the Iconic Wizard to have Both? Yes, but only at high levels (say 18~20?)What I originaly ment was that the Iconic wizard should be fairly focused on spell casting, but be able to cast all the spells (ie not a specialist wizard).  I think that most of the wizards feats should be stuff like meta-magic feats or spell focus/spell penetration feats.  I do not like the fact that the iconic wizard has a bunch of item creation feats.  I personaly think that scribe scroll and possibly ONE more would be more than enough. But then that is me.  I was not trying to argue that the wizard stated above should be the Iconic wizard, and I appoligize for that misunderstanding.I have DMed 2 games at what I would consider high levels (16+)  The both times I felt that I had to send more firepower at the players then the CR would suggest.  The DMG says that they should fight about 4 encounters at thier CR a day.  I was using 6 to 8 encounters at or above thier level every day and taking away about half to three quarters of the groups resources.I have played in three more high level games with someone who I think is a highly experienced DM, in one of those games he used monsters +2 CR above us, and for XP calculations treated them as CR 2 below what they are listed as.  In the second game he gave the monsters significant stat bonuses (+4~10 per stat to each of 3~5 stats) and still complained that the monsters didnt seem strong enough.  and that was on advanced monsters as well as normal ones.  In the third game he gave all monsters with decent intelegence magic items as NPCs, and declared that the items were bound to those creatures and could not be looted or used by anyone else.  This was on top of the treasure for the monster. (yes the monster used its treasure)Do I fudge die rolls? nope... well I did one time, but it wasnt a high level game and it was to help the monsters.Do I save or die players? Yes, do I coup de Graes players? When the opertunity comes up, usually it doesn't.players start with a point buy, 25-32 points depending on the different games...are my players better tactitions then me? No, I really dont think soexactly what I was trying to provide, someone else had said much the same, I was adding my testimony to his... and waiting for others to do the same.No, 20% of your resources is not a pushover, a pushover is something that can't hit the characters without a natural 20, and the characters hit with natural 2s.  A push over is something that the fighter can kill by himself, and lose less then 10% of his HP.  20% of your resources is something that you actually had to work together to kill without it hurting you too much.  20% of your resources is almost everything that one character has.20% of the party's resources is 80% of one characters resources, not the figher taking damage that is 80% of the wizards HP, the wizard using spells equal to 80% of the fighters daily alotment, or the rogue sneeking up behind something, and leaving it so close to death that the wizard is able to hit it with his staff and kill it before it gets a turn.All in all I think that the arguments about how re-working the DR system will invalidate much of the third party monster books is a great argument.  I can only hope that the new DMG, or MM talks about what changes to make to the old DR to bring it into the new system... of course you could just leave it alone as long as it only requires a magical +... I mean the big change is to make things that require silver actually require silver.  The Fiend's changed to make it more interesting, and if you feel like changing the DR on 3rd party monsters similarly then do it... take 50% of the DR, and drop +1 from the over come, and add a material to it. leaving atleast +1 behind.People hate change, but then how interesting would life be without change?</blockquote>

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