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D&D 5e OSR backwards compatibility
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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 6309936" data-attributes="member: 58197"><p>Agreed. If you approve of bounded accuracy, for example, that attack progression paints 5E in a much better light than other editions.</p><p></p><p>As far as calculating <em>total</em> attack bonus goes... hmm. That's a challenge, mostly because of magic items. 3E and 4E have very well-defined expectations for magic items, while AD&D and 5E don't. But I'll give it a shot. Here are my assumptions:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In AD&D and 3E, player characters get the "elite array" of stats, meaning a starting score of 15 in Strength. The elite array is roughly what you'd expect from 4d6 drop lowest.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In 4E and 5E, characters will use point buy and max out Strength. They will also allocate their "human bonuses" to Strength, meaning a starting score of 20 in 4E and 17 in 5E.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Characters will always raise Strength as soon as they get the opportunity.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In AD&D, player characters' weapon bonuses increase at levels 4, 8, 11, 14, and 18.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In 3E, player characters will allocate up to 50% of their wealth by level to improving their attack values. They will do this with Strength enhancers, magic weapons, and Strength tomes, in whatever combination gives the most bonus for the money.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In 4E, player characters will get standard gear by level (one item at level +1, one at level, one at level -1, and cash equivalent to level -1). The "level +1" item will be a weapon.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In 5E, player characters' weapon bonuses increase at levels 6, 11, and 16.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3E characters will get Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, and 4E characters will get Expertise, at the first opportunity.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Here are the results I get for fighters. The first table is the absolute bonus, the second shows what happens if you normalize to +0 at level 1:</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><strong>ABSOLUTE</strong></td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><strong>NORMALIZED</strong></td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td></tr><tr><td><strong>Level</strong></td><td><strong>AD&D</strong></td><td><strong>3E</strong></td><td><strong>4E</strong></td><td><strong>5E</strong></td><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td><strong>Level</strong></td><td><strong>AD&D</strong></td><td><strong>3E</strong></td><td><strong>4E</strong></td><td><strong>5E</strong></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td><br /> </td><td><br /> </td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr></table><p>[TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]3[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD] [TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]3[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD] [TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD] [TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD] [TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD] [TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD] [TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD] [TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD] [TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]25[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD] [TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]21[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD] [TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]27[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD] [TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD] [TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]29[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD] [TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]25[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD] [TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]31[/TD][TD="align: right"]21[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD] [TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]27[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]33[/TD][TD="align: right"]21[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD] [TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]29[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]34[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD] [TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]30[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD] [TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]36[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD] [TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]32[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD] [TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]24[/TD][TD="align: right"]37[/TD][TD="align: right"]24[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD] [TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]24[/TD][TD="align: right"]33[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD]</p><p>Thus, 3E has by far the widest spread between level 1 and 20, with a whopping 33 points. AD&D comes in second at 24, and 4E is third with 17. The narrowest spread by far is 5E, at a mere 10 points.</p><p></p><p>(This is arguably not a fair comparison, though, because 4E was designed to run for 30 levels and all the others were built on a 20-level plan. Continuing the progression for 4E and assuming you take the Demigod epic destiny, attack bonus at 30th level is +34, which is a spread of 27, in between AD&D and 3E.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 6309936, member: 58197"] Agreed. If you approve of bounded accuracy, for example, that attack progression paints 5E in a much better light than other editions. As far as calculating [I]total[/I] attack bonus goes... hmm. That's a challenge, mostly because of magic items. 3E and 4E have very well-defined expectations for magic items, while AD&D and 5E don't. But I'll give it a shot. Here are my assumptions: [LIST] [*]In AD&D and 3E, player characters get the "elite array" of stats, meaning a starting score of 15 in Strength. The elite array is roughly what you'd expect from 4d6 drop lowest. [*]In 4E and 5E, characters will use point buy and max out Strength. They will also allocate their "human bonuses" to Strength, meaning a starting score of 20 in 4E and 17 in 5E. [*]Characters will always raise Strength as soon as they get the opportunity. [*]In AD&D, player characters' weapon bonuses increase at levels 4, 8, 11, 14, and 18. [*]In 3E, player characters will allocate up to 50% of their wealth by level to improving their attack values. They will do this with Strength enhancers, magic weapons, and Strength tomes, in whatever combination gives the most bonus for the money. [*]In 4E, player characters will get standard gear by level (one item at level +1, one at level, one at level -1, and cash equivalent to level -1). The "level +1" item will be a weapon. [*]In 5E, player characters' weapon bonuses increase at levels 6, 11, and 16. [*]3E characters will get Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, and 4E characters will get Expertise, at the first opportunity. [/LIST] Here are the results I get for fighters. The first table is the absolute bonus, the second shows what happens if you normalize to +0 at level 1: [TABLE][TR][TD][B]ABSOLUTE[/B][/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD][B]NORMALIZED[/B][/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][/TR][TR][TD][B]Level[/B][/TD][TD][B]AD&D[/B][/TD][TD][B]3E[/B][/TD][TD][B]4E[/B][/TD][TD][B]5E[/B][/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD][B]Level[/B][/TD][TD][B]AD&D[/B][/TD][TD][B]3E[/B][/TD][TD][B]4E[/B][/TD][TD][B]5E[/B][/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]0[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]3[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]3[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][TD="align: right"]1[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]3[/TD][TD="align: right"]2[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]4[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]6[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][TD="align: right"]5[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]25[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]21[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]27[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]11[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD="align: right"]7[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]29[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]12[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]25[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD="align: right"]8[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]31[/TD][TD="align: right"]21[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]16[/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]27[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]33[/TD][TD="align: right"]21[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]29[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]34[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]13[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]18[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]30[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]9[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]36[/TD][TD="align: right"]22[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]19[/TD][TD="align: right"]23[/TD][TD="align: right"]32[/TD][TD="align: right"]15[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]24[/TD][TD="align: right"]37[/TD][TD="align: right"]24[/TD][TD="align: right"]14[/TD][TD] [/TD][TD] [/TD][TD="align: right"]20[/TD][TD="align: right"]24[/TD][TD="align: right"]33[/TD][TD="align: right"]17[/TD][TD="align: right"]10[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]Thus, 3E has by far the widest spread between level 1 and 20, with a whopping 33 points. AD&D comes in second at 24, and 4E is third with 17. The narrowest spread by far is 5E, at a mere 10 points. (This is arguably not a fair comparison, though, because 4E was designed to run for 30 levels and all the others were built on a 20-level plan. Continuing the progression for 4E and assuming you take the Demigod epic destiny, attack bonus at 30th level is +34, which is a spread of 27, in between AD&D and 3E.) [/QUOTE]
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