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D & D and/or Pathfinder, the effects of selective spell exclusions
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6857141" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>What I have tried to and failed to communicate, is that the typical fantasy world - even the typical D&D fantasy world - is written as if it was a world were teleport didn't exist, and the consequences of teleport existing are not typically worked out by the settings creator. We would expect teleportation, even if it was rare, to have a huge consequence for how society functioned, but in practice there is no evidence from the text in typical fantasy world building.</p><p></p><p>So, if you leave it out, typically it will have zero impact on the setting. Whereas, if you keep it in, and you want the setting to be internally consistent, typically you have to make at least some very large changes in the setting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Depending on the level of magic in your setting, the horse messenger and the pigeon master probably already had plenty of work. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is, to be frank, nonsense. Even if the setting assumes the truth of your assertion that gods are created by mortals and not the other way around, your assertion excludes polytheism as a practice despite the fact that the average D&D universe would appear to be exclusively polytheist. In general, in most religions gods aren't 'jealous' when someone worships someone other than them. They only get offended when they aren't worshipped. In polytheism, people don't worship single deities at all. They worship multiple deities simultaneously, emphasizing others in different times and situations. And in general, in polytheism neither is it the case that the god is devoted to his worshipers or that the worshippers are devoted to the god. In fact, a worshiper will frequently worship a god they despise rather than adore, simply to propitiate a deity and avert his wrath. For example, the ancient Spartans were largely Apollo and Athena worshipers, but they had a temple to Ares as well. In the temple, Ares was kept symbolically chained down, so that he could not leave Sparta and bless their enemies. This was not necessarily a respectful loving adoring worshipful way to treat your God, but it was an act of reverence and fear.</p><p></p><p>No D&D deity in the traditional polytheistic setting D&D establishes as the authority or ability to address all of a worshiper's needs anyway. The D&D in charge of fire can't necessarily ensure the health of your crops, the security of your business ventures, the safety of your children, and all the other things you might want to ensure. It's reasonable to believe that groups of deities in the situation you describe would band together for mutual success and protection. You'd only be a rival with another deity if the deities core portfolio overlaps with yours (as in the case of say Ares and Athena) or if the deity has a portfolio that fundamentally opposes yours; for example, chastity versus lust, or family versus hedonism. </p><p></p><p>So yeah, I don't see where you are coming from. Most D&D worlds more or less automatically assume something like that. Indeed, if you want to make them more coherent, you should instead of having PC's or NPC's have a single patron deity, emphasize that most characters broadly worship many gods depending on the season and situation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>While that is reasonable, I have no idea what it has to do with banning teleport. If you disallow certain powerful spells, it makes wizards without license or restriction at least somewhat more reasonable and not less.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6857141, member: 4937"] What I have tried to and failed to communicate, is that the typical fantasy world - even the typical D&D fantasy world - is written as if it was a world were teleport didn't exist, and the consequences of teleport existing are not typically worked out by the settings creator. We would expect teleportation, even if it was rare, to have a huge consequence for how society functioned, but in practice there is no evidence from the text in typical fantasy world building. So, if you leave it out, typically it will have zero impact on the setting. Whereas, if you keep it in, and you want the setting to be internally consistent, typically you have to make at least some very large changes in the setting. Depending on the level of magic in your setting, the horse messenger and the pigeon master probably already had plenty of work. This is, to be frank, nonsense. Even if the setting assumes the truth of your assertion that gods are created by mortals and not the other way around, your assertion excludes polytheism as a practice despite the fact that the average D&D universe would appear to be exclusively polytheist. In general, in most religions gods aren't 'jealous' when someone worships someone other than them. They only get offended when they aren't worshipped. In polytheism, people don't worship single deities at all. They worship multiple deities simultaneously, emphasizing others in different times and situations. And in general, in polytheism neither is it the case that the god is devoted to his worshipers or that the worshippers are devoted to the god. In fact, a worshiper will frequently worship a god they despise rather than adore, simply to propitiate a deity and avert his wrath. For example, the ancient Spartans were largely Apollo and Athena worshipers, but they had a temple to Ares as well. In the temple, Ares was kept symbolically chained down, so that he could not leave Sparta and bless their enemies. This was not necessarily a respectful loving adoring worshipful way to treat your God, but it was an act of reverence and fear. No D&D deity in the traditional polytheistic setting D&D establishes as the authority or ability to address all of a worshiper's needs anyway. The D&D in charge of fire can't necessarily ensure the health of your crops, the security of your business ventures, the safety of your children, and all the other things you might want to ensure. It's reasonable to believe that groups of deities in the situation you describe would band together for mutual success and protection. You'd only be a rival with another deity if the deities core portfolio overlaps with yours (as in the case of say Ares and Athena) or if the deity has a portfolio that fundamentally opposes yours; for example, chastity versus lust, or family versus hedonism. So yeah, I don't see where you are coming from. Most D&D worlds more or less automatically assume something like that. Indeed, if you want to make them more coherent, you should instead of having PC's or NPC's have a single patron deity, emphasize that most characters broadly worship many gods depending on the season and situation. While that is reasonable, I have no idea what it has to do with banning teleport. If you disallow certain powerful spells, it makes wizards without license or restriction at least somewhat more reasonable and not less. [/QUOTE]
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