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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8410553" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I've no idea what you're talking about here. The only Commanding Presence I can think of is the category name that covers the action point for allies abilities.</p><p></p><p>Believe it or not they predate AD&D. They were a purely gamist construct when they were made that Gygax attempted to retcon with paper thin definitions. From memory they were literally borrowed from <em>naval</em> wargame rules just to provide the right gamist experience.</p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]144537[/ATTACH]</p><p></p><p>Please tell me how you can land a solid hit on someone with an axe and <em>not</em> cause a wound.</p><p></p><p>You <strong>hit</strong><em>. </em>And not all armour is axe-proof. Or are we into "skin as tough as steel" or "hits aren't hits" now to try and justify gamist constructs.</p><p></p><p>All of which pretend hits aren't hits so far as I can tell. And don't match up at all to anything in the real world.</p><p></p><p>And they need to keep being provided because they do not actually work when investigated. 4e is the closest to having a functional model with 5e being second.</p><p></p><p>And apparently you can weave a fiction around simple abstract concepts when they are written as a gamist thing - and then given a gloss so that there's an excuse for pure undiluted gamism to fit a story.</p><p></p><p>Indeed. But this was necessary <em>for a game</em> where someone gets to keep playing because playing actively is fun.</p><p></p><p>They are <em>harmful</em> for storytelling. Stories are about consequences. And what hit points do is ensure that things happen without consequences. You don't scar and you don't slow down. It's just a hit that might as well not have happened and there are no lasting consequences at all. It's almost the opposite of a storytelling mechanic.</p><p></p><p>On the contrary. 4e powers <em>are</em> storytelling mechanics. They are actions that have consequences. Hit points are an anti-storytelling mechanic because they do precisely one thing and ensure that things that <em>should</em> have consequences don't.</p><p></p><p>Commanding Presence as I say is the confusing one. The rest are either fine or Batman-level.</p><p></p><p>In short they are <em>anti-storytelling.</em></p><p></p><p>You ... do realise that "plot armour" is a critique of bad writing that takes you out of the story?</p><p></p><p>Asked and answered.</p><p></p><p>Asked and answered</p><p></p><p>You have watched a current? Flow isn't laminar everywhere.</p><p></p><p>If you want to stifle your narrative <em>you put mechanical plot armour in like hit points.</em> The only purpose of plot armour <em>is</em> to stifle narratives.</p><p></p><p>If you want to enhance your narrative <em>you ensure that actions have consequences</em>. Which most 4e powers do.</p><p></p><p>And how does that mean that a hit isn't a hit? Or how does "resolve" mean that a hit doesn't draw blood?</p><p></p><p>It's far clar</p><p></p><p>Nope. 4e <em>hit points</em> show that paradigm - but your character is more than a single system in isolation. Encounter and daily powers mean that you actually, meaningfully tire in the course of normal play but can pace yourself. 5e sometimes does this. Earlier editions almost always don't.</p><p></p><p>It's you who is restricting things to only one possible interpretation regarding 4e powers.</p><p></p><p>If hit points include determination (as they do) then why in the name of the little black pig do you have any problem with things done by an inspiring person (or even their presence) making their allies more determined.</p><p></p><p>You aren't even following through here on what you claim to believe about hit points if you have any problem here.</p><p></p><p>Literally the only one I've failed to answer is when you say Commanding Presence teleports people. As far as I am aware every single other case has been asked and answered.</p><p></p><p>Please explain <em>where this comes from</em>. The only name I have seen you give it is "Commanding Presence".</p><p></p><p>(And if it's an Epic level power then I'm just going to shrug; my big problem with Epic tier in 4e is that it isn't epic enough).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8410553, member: 87792"] I've no idea what you're talking about here. The only Commanding Presence I can think of is the category name that covers the action point for allies abilities. Believe it or not they predate AD&D. They were a purely gamist construct when they were made that Gygax attempted to retcon with paper thin definitions. From memory they were literally borrowed from [I]naval[/I] wargame rules just to provide the right gamist experience. [ATTACH type="full"]144537[/ATTACH] Please tell me how you can land a solid hit on someone with an axe and [I]not[/I] cause a wound. You [B]hit[/B][I]. [/I]And not all armour is axe-proof. Or are we into "skin as tough as steel" or "hits aren't hits" now to try and justify gamist constructs. All of which pretend hits aren't hits so far as I can tell. And don't match up at all to anything in the real world. And they need to keep being provided because they do not actually work when investigated. 4e is the closest to having a functional model with 5e being second. And apparently you can weave a fiction around simple abstract concepts when they are written as a gamist thing - and then given a gloss so that there's an excuse for pure undiluted gamism to fit a story. Indeed. But this was necessary [I]for a game[/I] where someone gets to keep playing because playing actively is fun. They are [I]harmful[/I] for storytelling. Stories are about consequences. And what hit points do is ensure that things happen without consequences. You don't scar and you don't slow down. It's just a hit that might as well not have happened and there are no lasting consequences at all. It's almost the opposite of a storytelling mechanic. On the contrary. 4e powers [I]are[/I] storytelling mechanics. They are actions that have consequences. Hit points are an anti-storytelling mechanic because they do precisely one thing and ensure that things that [I]should[/I] have consequences don't. Commanding Presence as I say is the confusing one. The rest are either fine or Batman-level. In short they are [I]anti-storytelling.[/I] You ... do realise that "plot armour" is a critique of bad writing that takes you out of the story? Asked and answered. Asked and answered You have watched a current? Flow isn't laminar everywhere. If you want to stifle your narrative [I]you put mechanical plot armour in like hit points.[/I] The only purpose of plot armour [I]is[/I] to stifle narratives. If you want to enhance your narrative [I]you ensure that actions have consequences[/I]. Which most 4e powers do. And how does that mean that a hit isn't a hit? Or how does "resolve" mean that a hit doesn't draw blood? It's far clar Nope. 4e [I]hit points[/I] show that paradigm - but your character is more than a single system in isolation. Encounter and daily powers mean that you actually, meaningfully tire in the course of normal play but can pace yourself. 5e sometimes does this. Earlier editions almost always don't. It's you who is restricting things to only one possible interpretation regarding 4e powers. If hit points include determination (as they do) then why in the name of the little black pig do you have any problem with things done by an inspiring person (or even their presence) making their allies more determined. You aren't even following through here on what you claim to believe about hit points if you have any problem here. Literally the only one I've failed to answer is when you say Commanding Presence teleports people. As far as I am aware every single other case has been asked and answered. Please explain [I]where this comes from[/I]. The only name I have seen you give it is "Commanding Presence". (And if it's an Epic level power then I'm just going to shrug; my big problem with Epic tier in 4e is that it isn't epic enough). [/QUOTE]
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