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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8418960" data-attributes="member: 42582">Well given that I played hundreds of hours of 4e D&D, with many creatures with forced movement abilities at various degrees of action economy "speed", I think I know the answer to this better than you.One of my favourite 4e creatures is the Deathlock Wight. One of its abilities is Horrific Visage: a blast attack (ie it happens only on one side of the Wight, namely, where it is looking) that causes its victims to recoil in horror (that is, it is a push effect with the fear keyword). When I used this creature in an adventure, it was in a room, with an open pit, at the bottom of a steeply-sloping passage. The PCs, leery of the slope, roped themselves together. So when one recoiled in horror from the Wight, and fell down the pit, the players didn't complain about player agency. They congratulated themselves on their foresight, and the player of the dwarf made a STR check to pull his friend out of the pit.In a skill challenge resolving a difficult conversation with some witches, led by a Pact Hag, I had to narrate a change in the fiction to drive the challenge forward (I can't recall now if it was a failure or just a reframing). I narrated that one of the PCs - stepping across the room under the "direction" (or misdirection) of the Pact Hag - suddenly found the floor collapsing beneath him as the Hag pulled a rope. The player of that PC didn't complain about player agency - he got ready to fight the giant spiders that were advancing on him.I've played games with no FitM resolution: thousands of hours of Rolemaster; dozens of hours of Classic Traveller. 4e is not one of those games. I don't understand why you would analyse it as if it is. And then engage in special pleading about the 5e Shield spell.In 5e the following ability would fit right in: Unstoppable: when you drop to zero hp, you may use your reaction to immediately spend a hit die. It could as easily be a fighter or barbarian ability as a paladin one.</blockquote>

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