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D&D Combat is fictionless
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8419043" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Says who? I mean, other than you.</p><p></p><p>Clearly not the 4e designers - and it was their game that I was playing!</p><p></p><p>The half-orc ability you describe - which, as I could said, could equally be given to a barbarian, a fighter or a paladin with no departure from th default fiction of any of those classes (in AD&D cavaliers and sohei both had variations on that ability) - could equally be <em>spend a hit die</em> rather than <em>drop to 1 hp</em> and it wouldn't change the fiction.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think I've ever been rubbed up the wrong way by "player agency" (which I think means <em>players playing the game and impacting the shared fiction</em>). But I don't know why you're talking about "erasing player choices". A FitM approach to narrating forced movement doesn't erase anyone's choices - as [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] already explained upthread, it's just deferring finalisation of the fiction until all the mechanical effects that contribute to it are resolved.</p><p></p><p>I'm not 100% sure why it matters, but it's also not true that every instance of forced movement permits a defence. Just looking through the "D"s in Monster Vault, I found that the Savage Displacer Beast can push any enemy who misses with a melee attack, as a free action at will and no attack roll required (it's an <em>effect</em>). The Displacer Beast Pack Lord has a limited use attack called Clear the Path which slides on a hit (3 squares) or miss (1 square). The Doppelganger Infiltrator has an ability called Perfect Replica, which is an effect with no attack roll required and that immobilises its target; and it has an at-will opportunity action Replica Switch which permits it to swap places with an enemy affected by Perfect Replica if they are adjacent and a third party makes a melee or ranged attack against it.</p><p></p><p>And a couple of final points about forced movement: in the fiction, Horrific Visage is nothing like Thunderwave. The latter is a blast of energy. The former is what it says on the tin: a horrific visage. The reason the character moves is because they recoil in horror (it's a fear effect). I can imagine contexts in which the most apposite narration would be not that the character recoiled at all, but that they never approached - eg if the ability was used as an immediate reaction after having been readied in response to a character moving towards the Wight. That wouldn't negate any player agency. Another, similar example: an Elder Green Dragon has an ability called Luring Glare which slides a target that is hit with an attack against Will; and it has an at-will immediate reaction, Cunning Glance, triggered by an enemy shifting to a nearby square, which permits the use of Luring Glare against that enemy. It would be very natural to narrate the effect of Cunning Glance as the enemy never moving, or moving directly to where they end up, rather than first assuming that the character shifts and then that they move elsewhere. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Here is the actual play report:</p><p>I regard this as perfectly representative of how 4e plays. Of course at lower tiers the fiction was different - at Heroic there were boats and Goblin warrens and tombs; at Paragon there were hobgoblin phalanxes and Underdark caverns; at Epic the PCs fought demons and destroyed Torog's Soul Abattoir, as well as assaulting the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I ran a very large number of skill challenges in which the Arcana skill figured, and magical effects were dealt with. The character of those effects as <em>magical </em>was a matter of fiction. Not a mechanical concept. (Almost no non-PC-generated effect has a power source; rituals do not have power sources; and in any event power source is a keyword and so its presence in the rule you quote is redundant. In our game we focused on the fiction.)</p><p></p><p>Here are some examples:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The relevant mechanical notions there do not include <em>is or isn't magic</em>. This third one combines skill use (though as single checks, not in a skill challenge) and healing:</p><p></p><p>The sorcerer conjuring up chaos energy seems magical enough: but is it magic, or will, or faith, that allows a paladin to channel the energy of a magical Diamond Cincture into his friend to save his life? The game does not oblige that question to be answered.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So one possibility is that you played the game correctly - ie having a bad time - and I mis-played the game - and had a good time. Another is that you misunderstood the game, and as a result had a bad time, and I worked out how the game is meant to be played, and had a good time. Which you think is up to you. I know which I think.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8419043, member: 42582"] Says who? I mean, other than you. Clearly not the 4e designers - and it was their game that I was playing! The half-orc ability you describe - which, as I could said, could equally be given to a barbarian, a fighter or a paladin with no departure from th default fiction of any of those classes (in AD&D cavaliers and sohei both had variations on that ability) - could equally be [I]spend a hit die[/I] rather than [I]drop to 1 hp[/I] and it wouldn't change the fiction. I don't think I've ever been rubbed up the wrong way by "player agency" (which I think means [I]players playing the game and impacting the shared fiction[/I]). But I don't know why you're talking about "erasing player choices". A FitM approach to narrating forced movement doesn't erase anyone's choices - as [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] already explained upthread, it's just deferring finalisation of the fiction until all the mechanical effects that contribute to it are resolved. I'm not 100% sure why it matters, but it's also not true that every instance of forced movement permits a defence. Just looking through the "D"s in Monster Vault, I found that the Savage Displacer Beast can push any enemy who misses with a melee attack, as a free action at will and no attack roll required (it's an [I]effect[/I]). The Displacer Beast Pack Lord has a limited use attack called Clear the Path which slides on a hit (3 squares) or miss (1 square). The Doppelganger Infiltrator has an ability called Perfect Replica, which is an effect with no attack roll required and that immobilises its target; and it has an at-will opportunity action Replica Switch which permits it to swap places with an enemy affected by Perfect Replica if they are adjacent and a third party makes a melee or ranged attack against it. And a couple of final points about forced movement: in the fiction, Horrific Visage is nothing like Thunderwave. The latter is a blast of energy. The former is what it says on the tin: a horrific visage. The reason the character moves is because they recoil in horror (it's a fear effect). I can imagine contexts in which the most apposite narration would be not that the character recoiled at all, but that they never approached - eg if the ability was used as an immediate reaction after having been readied in response to a character moving towards the Wight. That wouldn't negate any player agency. Another, similar example: an Elder Green Dragon has an ability called Luring Glare which slides a target that is hit with an attack against Will; and it has an at-will immediate reaction, Cunning Glance, triggered by an enemy shifting to a nearby square, which permits the use of Luring Glare against that enemy. It would be very natural to narrate the effect of Cunning Glance as the enemy never moving, or moving directly to where they end up, rather than first assuming that the character shifts and then that they move elsewhere. Here is the actual play report: I regard this as perfectly representative of how 4e plays. Of course at lower tiers the fiction was different - at Heroic there were boats and Goblin warrens and tombs; at Paragon there were hobgoblin phalanxes and Underdark caverns; at Epic the PCs fought demons and destroyed Torog's Soul Abattoir, as well as assaulting the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl. I ran a very large number of skill challenges in which the Arcana skill figured, and magical effects were dealt with. The character of those effects as [I]magical [/I]was a matter of fiction. Not a mechanical concept. (Almost no non-PC-generated effect has a power source; rituals do not have power sources; and in any event power source is a keyword and so its presence in the rule you quote is redundant. In our game we focused on the fiction.) Here are some examples: The relevant mechanical notions there do not include [I]is or isn't magic[/I]. This third one combines skill use (though as single checks, not in a skill challenge) and healing: The sorcerer conjuring up chaos energy seems magical enough: but is it magic, or will, or faith, that allows a paladin to channel the energy of a magical Diamond Cincture into his friend to save his life? The game does not oblige that question to be answered. So one possibility is that you played the game correctly - ie having a bad time - and I mis-played the game - and had a good time. Another is that you misunderstood the game, and as a result had a bad time, and I worked out how the game is meant to be played, and had a good time. Which you think is up to you. I know which I think. [/QUOTE]
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