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<blockquote data-quote="Polyhedral_Columbia" data-source="post: 7696941" data-attributes="member: 55445">I am a patron of Cubicle 7, and am totally free to voice my preferences on this open forum. I'd rather not be just a passive consumer who assumes the product line is chiseled in stone.Well then let's just give up. Burn the hundreds of post-Tolkien Middle-earth RPG books. Encase JRRT's writings in bronze. And delete this thread. None of my posts here have even mentioned the issue of whether 5e is a good fit for Middle-earth. Don’t worky, I'm sure C7 will do a fine job.I dislike the word &quot;canon&quot; as much as you do. Yet I want to make clear that my list of Peoples only includes cultures which are mentioned or implied by JRRT - not cultures which were created by MERP, New Line (e.g. the Abrelinds), or LOTRO. Perhaps the words &quot;Tolkienian core&quot; would be a fitting synonym.Not that those conceptions of Middle-earth are bad - I just want to make clear what is the Tolkien core. Any Middle-earth RPG has to elaborate its own parallel version of Middle-earth. Actually, each GM creates their own version of Middle-earth too, even if the GM sticks closely to what is presented in the books. Yet since the Tolkien Enterprises license doesn’t include the earlier material, it would have to be referred to obliquely if C7 wishes to tap that lost lore.Dude, I know all about the three stages of Tolkien's legendarium (Nascent = 1910s-1930, Intermediate = 1930 to 1950, and Mature = 1950s to 1974), and how JRRT didn't manage to update all of the earlier material to seamlessly match the Mature Legendarium before he died. Though he aimed to, and tried. Yet obviously, the Nascent and Intermediate stuff is &quot;Middle-earth&quot; - it's just not fully harmonized with the published LotR. I mean, just looking at the chapter titles of The Book of Lost Tales (vol 1 and 2) they are obviously relevant:1.&nbsp; &nbsp; The Cottage of Lost Play&quot; — the &quot;framework&quot; story2.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Music of the Ainur&quot; — the first version of what would become the Ainulindalë3.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor&quot; — later Valaquenta and first chapters of Quenta Silmarillion4.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Chaining of Melko&quot; — Melko is an earlier name of Melkor5.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr&quot; — Kôr is the later Tirion and its hill Túna6.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor&quot;7.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Flight of the Noldoli&quot; — &quot;Noldoli&quot; are the Elves later called Noldor8.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Tale of the Sun and Moon&quot;9.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Hiding of Valinor&quot;10.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind&quot;Contents of Book 21.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Tale of Tinúviel&quot; — first version of the tale of Beren and Lúthien2.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Turambar and the Foalókë&quot; — first version of the Túrin saga3.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Fall of Gondolin&quot; — the only full narrative of the Fall of Gondolin4.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Nauglafring&quot; — a story which was &quot;lost&quot;, in that it never was rewritten in full, and was mostly left out of the later Silmarillion.5.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The Tale of Eärendel&quot; — the only full narrative of Eärendil's travels6.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;The History of Eriol or Ælfwine and the End of the Tales&quot; The Mature Legendarium is also a Mythology for England...and now the whole wide world.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Polyhedral_Columbia, post: 7696941, member: 55445"] I am a patron of Cubicle 7, and am totally free to voice my preferences on this open forum. I'd rather not be just a passive consumer who assumes the product line is chiseled in stone. Well then let's just give up. Burn the hundreds of post-Tolkien Middle-earth RPG books. Encase JRRT's writings in bronze. And delete this thread. None of my posts here have even mentioned the issue of whether 5e is a good fit for Middle-earth. Don’t worky, I'm sure C7 will do a fine job. I dislike the word "canon" as much as you do. Yet I want to make clear that my list of Peoples only includes cultures which are mentioned or implied by JRRT - not cultures which were created by MERP, New Line (e.g. the Abrelinds), or LOTRO. Perhaps the words "Tolkienian core" would be a fitting synonym. Not that those conceptions of Middle-earth are bad - I just want to make clear what is the Tolkien core. Any Middle-earth RPG has to elaborate its own parallel version of Middle-earth. Actually, each GM creates their own version of Middle-earth too, even if the GM sticks closely to what is presented in the books. Yet since the Tolkien Enterprises license doesn’t include the earlier material, it would have to be referred to obliquely if C7 wishes to tap that lost lore. Dude, I know all about the three stages of Tolkien's legendarium (Nascent = 1910s-1930, Intermediate = 1930 to 1950, and Mature = 1950s to 1974), and how JRRT didn't manage to update all of the earlier material to seamlessly match the Mature Legendarium before he died. Though he aimed to, and tried. Yet obviously, the Nascent and Intermediate stuff is "Middle-earth" - it's just not fully harmonized with the published LotR. I mean, just looking at the chapter titles of The Book of Lost Tales (vol 1 and 2) they are obviously relevant: 1. The Cottage of Lost Play" — the "framework" story 2. "The Music of the Ainur" — the first version of what would become the Ainulindalë 3. "The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor" — later Valaquenta and first chapters of Quenta Silmarillion 4. "The Chaining of Melko" — Melko is an earlier name of Melkor 5. "The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr" — Kôr is the later Tirion and its hill Túna 6. "The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor" 7. "The Flight of the Noldoli" — "Noldoli" are the Elves later called Noldor 8. "The Tale of the Sun and Moon" 9. "The Hiding of Valinor" 10. "Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind" Contents of Book 2 1. "The Tale of Tinúviel" — first version of the tale of Beren and Lúthien 2. "Turambar and the Foalókë" — first version of the Túrin saga 3. "The Fall of Gondolin" — the only full narrative of the Fall of Gondolin 4. "The Nauglafring" — a story which was "lost", in that it never was rewritten in full, and was mostly left out of the later Silmarillion. 5. "The Tale of Eärendel" — the only full narrative of Eärendil's travels 6. "The History of Eriol or Ælfwine and the End of the Tales" The Mature Legendarium is also a Mythology for England...and now the whole wide world. [/QUOTE]

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