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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 8270262" data-attributes="member: 48965">Emphasis mine... While I don't necessarily disagree, I'm not sure having some weak spots in a party will be so detrimental that it will make for a bad heist adventure (Or can't be covered by another team member) and that having said weak spots isn't actually part of some subtypes of heist movies.I agree here but again I don't think having weaknesses in the party are necessarily a detriment to a heist adventure unless you are tryng to run a hyper-competent heist adventure.I think magic could play a similar role here.  Spells like guidance, invisibility, sleep, and so on are low level spells that can greatly influence/enhance the party's chancesThere are a few resources like this that are optional in the DMG and there is of course certain magics that would be able to negate consequences from the result of actions already taken... but I agree that if desired, this is definitely something that BitD has a clezar advantage over D&D with.There are group checks, aid actions, etc. in D&D.  I might be missing the differences dues to lack of familiarity so let me know if Iam.These all seem to ultimately be based around engendering more competency...  that said too much competency and certainty does push hard against some types of heist films and books.  So it may make it harder to run certain types of heist stories with BitD.I don't really think 5e D&D is about mitigating risk, unless we are talking level 1 or level 2 characters... the game is ultimately about being heroes, mitigating risk would be staying at home farming.  With milestone XP the DM has the tools to reward the accomplishment of specific goals but the players have the freedom to decide how to approach said goals. The difference I think is that in a D&D game the characters aren't assumed to be inherently competent in any particular thing but competency comes from decisions, management of resources, planning, teamwork, etc as opposed to a buffer of baked in competency. I think SC's as presented in the 4e DMG were...well... kind of garbage.  They weren't explained well and they were mechanically broken (so it wasn't just a presentation issue the mechanics for them weren't good).  And yes in DMG 2 they fixed them but come on...majority of gamers don't buy supplemental books.  I actually use 4e essentials to supplement my 5e games at times but most pro-4e fans tend to look down on those books for... reasons.  IMO WotC poisoned it's own well on that one with 4e and those who thought it was an intersting concept or had promise and who didn't pick up DMG 2 kind of did their own thing with them so I'm not surprised that there are people who have taken the concept and put it to good use.  The DMG has optional rules for people who want a little more depth to their skills... but one could also argue that BitD combat systm is kind of simplistic and it is probably a result of it using the same system as everything else.Again thanks for this hawkeyefan... I'll be honest my takeaway is that BitD allows you to play out hyper-competent criminals who have a near supernatural ability to mastermind and pull off capers successfully without having to actually come up with plans or manage anything in real time... and while yes there are heist movies and shows that circle around this subtype of the genre (I do find it interesting that they are often comedies both Oceans 11 and Leverage come to mind) It doesn't seem like it would do something more grounded and gritty or where things fall apart without the players or the GM purposefully gimping themselves (and thus not really playing in the spirit of the game).  What are your thoughts on that?</blockquote>

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