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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8270673" data-attributes="member: 6696971">That is your takeaway?Seriously?1)&nbsp; A &quot;heist&quot; is a nebulous term that isn't remotely helping conversation (which I tried to poke at earlier).2)&nbsp; If the intent is &quot;infil &gt; exfil with the McGuffin without a trace&quot;, then yeah...cue your PacMan sounds.3)&nbsp; If its &quot;plan &gt; infil &gt; eventually pear-shaped &gt; cue A Team explosions and destruction &gt; exfil (whether fighting your way out until their are no more HPs to ablate or teleporting via your Wizard or a big chase) with the McGuffin with scorched earth in your wake&quot; then cue the PacMan defeats level sounds.I don't care if the Win Con is (2) or (3) as I put upthread...BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS in a number of ways.&nbsp; That is the entire point.&nbsp; It would be nice if everyone would recognize that.&nbsp; I don't know why, but people refuse to acknowledge that these two things are not the same.4)&nbsp; HOWEVER, Fail Forward's role in this kind of thing can be ABSOLUTELY DYSFUNCTIONAL (eg - you can't actually lose because there is no legit Loss Con...the GM will just string you along until they feel you've done enough to give you your Win Con Trophy) or ABSOLUTELY AWESOME and it DEPENDS UPON MECHANICAL ARCHETECTURE/INTEGRATION.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8270673, member: 6696971"] That is your takeaway? Seriously? 1) A "heist" is a nebulous term that isn't remotely helping conversation (which I tried to poke at earlier). 2) If the intent is "infil > exfil with the McGuffin without a trace", then yeah...cue your PacMan sounds. 3) If its "plan > infil > eventually pear-shaped > cue A Team explosions and destruction > exfil (whether fighting your way out until their are no more HPs to ablate or teleporting via your Wizard or a big chase) with the McGuffin with scorched earth in your wake" then cue the PacMan defeats level sounds. I don't care if the Win Con is (2) or (3) as I put upthread...BUT THEY ARE DIFFERENT THINGS in a number of ways. That is the entire point. It would be nice if everyone would recognize that. I don't know why, but people refuse to acknowledge that these two things are not the same. 4) HOWEVER, Fail Forward's role in this kind of thing can be ABSOLUTELY DYSFUNCTIONAL (eg - you can't actually lose because there is no legit Loss Con...the GM will just string you along until they feel you've done enough to give you your Win Con Trophy) or ABSOLUTELY AWESOME and it DEPENDS UPON MECHANICAL ARCHETECTURE/INTEGRATION. [/QUOTE]

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