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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8271129" data-attributes="member: 22779">Fair enough.&nbsp; And, honestly, I've been more than a dick here, so, yeah, I'll make a concentrated effort to tone it down.However, I do disagree where our main point of disagreement is.&nbsp; I think that this:&quot;The claim that heists cannot be done well in D&amp;D 5e is false&quot; Because, while myself and others have given extensive examples of why heists/infiltration scenarios don't work very well in 5e, the counter claim has never given any evidence other than &quot;As long as my group has fun, that's all that matters&quot;.&nbsp; [USER=3400]@billd91[/USER] claims that it's the DM's fault because the DM is too focused on the mechanics.&nbsp; Other claims have basically swirled around in a cloud of Oberoni Fallacy.&nbsp; And, frankly, in a system that lacks any real concrete mechanics for dealing with something, it's always going to come down to the DM to make it work.Which, as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] so rightly points out, is EXACTLY what it says on the tin for 5e D&amp;D.&nbsp; That's the point of &quot;Rulings not Rules&quot;.&nbsp; But, that's also it's biggest weakness - relying on the DM to make up stuff will always be problematic.&nbsp; That's always been true.&nbsp; So, just saying, &quot;Well, it works in 5e because this or that DM made it work&quot; isn't a win for 5e.&nbsp; It's a win for that DM.&nbsp; You can't claim that a game supports something when the support basically amounts to, &quot;make something up&quot; and dumps everything into the DM's lap.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8271129, member: 22779"] Fair enough. And, honestly, I've been more than a dick here, so, yeah, I'll make a concentrated effort to tone it down. However, I do disagree where our main point of disagreement is. I think that this: "The claim that heists cannot be done well in D&D 5e is false" Because, while myself and others have given extensive examples of why heists/infiltration scenarios don't work very well in 5e, the counter claim has never given any evidence other than "As long as my group has fun, that's all that matters". [USER=3400]@billd91[/USER] claims that it's the DM's fault because the DM is too focused on the mechanics. Other claims have basically swirled around in a cloud of Oberoni Fallacy. And, frankly, in a system that lacks any real concrete mechanics for dealing with something, it's always going to come down to the DM to make it work. Which, as [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] so rightly points out, is EXACTLY what it says on the tin for 5e D&D. That's the point of "Rulings not Rules". But, that's also it's biggest weakness - relying on the DM to make up stuff will always be problematic. That's always been true. So, just saying, "Well, it works in 5e because this or that DM made it work" isn't a win for 5e. It's a win for that DM. You can't claim that a game supports something when the support basically amounts to, "make something up" and dumps everything into the DM's lap. [/QUOTE]

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