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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8271152" data-attributes="member: 22779">Just to harp on this one again.This is pretty much textbook Oberoni Fallacy.  I mean, the rules are problematic for a number of people and the response is, "Well, some people don't have problems using these rules, so, if anyone has problems, it must be their fault.See, in this particular example, I just use the 4e rules for stealth because they are a lot better.  Stealthing adds a Hidden condition to the character.  Anything that is Hidden isn't noticed by observers.  Observers can find a Hidden character (or object) with a Perception check opposed by the Stealth check.  If successful, it removes the Hidden condition.So, invisibility does not confer the Hidden condition.  You can turn invisible, but, everyone still knows what square you are in.  If you turn invisible and then take an action to use Stealth (allowed by the invisibility spell), then you become Hidden and cannot be detected without someone in turn burning an action (or a high enough passive Perception) to try to find you.Simple, elegant and works in all situations.  Something that is very much not true in the 5e rules.  But, according to [USER=48965]@Imaro[/USER], if I was just a better DM, then I wouldn't need to look to 4e to fix these rules, I'd just be able to use the 5e ruleset without any problems.</blockquote>