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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8271190" data-attributes="member: 82106">AND, going back to my point way back when, is it even worth discussing this 'heist' thing? D&amp;D is NOT A HEIST GAME. So, of course it doesn't do them like BitD does. In fact it is a 'violently look dungeons' game, so it does &quot;everything turns to violent mayhem after a bit of sneaking&quot; pretty well. I mean, that's a bit trite in the sense that some mix of stealth, violence, etc. where skill checks are basically just color and setup for the hack-n-slash or &quot;spell/potion/scroll our way through this&quot; happens. My only problem was the OP's conclusion. IMHO there are games that CAN do all of it. Yes they will be better at some things, but a game with a lot of the elements of 4e, maybe closer to some other more seriously narrative games, a BW-based game. You can do most of all this stuff. It is just a matter of exercising the fairly universal mechanics, which are driven by scene framing processes. What you WILL get out of play is hard to predict, but if you wanted it to be heist, or loot dungeon, or spy on folks, it all follows the same process.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8271190, member: 82106"] AND, going back to my point way back when, is it even worth discussing this 'heist' thing? D&D is NOT A HEIST GAME. So, of course it doesn't do them like BitD does. In fact it is a 'violently look dungeons' game, so it does "everything turns to violent mayhem after a bit of sneaking" pretty well. I mean, that's a bit trite in the sense that some mix of stealth, violence, etc. where skill checks are basically just color and setup for the hack-n-slash or "spell/potion/scroll our way through this" happens. My only problem was the OP's conclusion. IMHO there are games that CAN do all of it. Yes they will be better at some things, but a game with a lot of the elements of 4e, maybe closer to some other more seriously narrative games, a BW-based game. You can do most of all this stuff. It is just a matter of exercising the fairly universal mechanics, which are driven by scene framing processes. What you WILL get out of play is hard to predict, but if you wanted it to be heist, or loot dungeon, or spy on folks, it all follows the same process. [/QUOTE]

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