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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8271279" data-attributes="member: 18">This feels slightly untruthful because the rules haven't worked identically through &quot;multiple editions of D&amp;D&quot; and thus you claiming &quot;multiple DMs&quot; have done this feels like a stretch, especially given you're claiming it &quot;isn't hypothetical&quot; in the same paragraph.In different editions, this could have gone down very different ways, either RAW or with some fiat involved (which would have been necessary in say, 2E), particularly as it interacted with surprise rules and so on, the exact positioning of characters, etc. Even in 5E it's not necessarily correct to say a failed Stealth check automatically means you're &quot;seen&quot;, unless you were shuffling past in front of a guard or something. There are a lot of scenarios were a guard would just investigate, or go to get someone, rather than immediately screaming for help. These guards aren't typically elite, or well-trained, or devoted (if they are, that's a very specific scenario and you take other approaches).Not just D&amp;D.It's not a D&amp;D thing, it's an era thing.You saw it applied to every RPG in existence in the 1990s, I know because I spent half my life online back then, discussing RPGs, and there wasn't a single RPG where people didn't basically try to run an argument along those lines. Nor any RPG that some people didn't think was &quot;ideal&quot; for every single genre in existence. The issue was that this was an era before &quot;system matters&quot; had got much purchase. Some people realized it, but a lot just couldn't get their heads around it.You're literally arguing that D&amp;D can't handle sneaking and stealing things (you extended it beyond mere heists a few posts back), which is a pretty common element of &quot;heroic fantasy&quot;, especially of the type D&amp;D was inspired by. So that seems contradictory.Oh how soon people forget the d20 era...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8271279, member: 18"] This feels slightly untruthful because the rules haven't worked identically through "multiple editions of D&D" and thus you claiming "multiple DMs" have done this feels like a stretch, especially given you're claiming it "isn't hypothetical" in the same paragraph. In different editions, this could have gone down[I] very [/I]different ways, either RAW or with some fiat involved (which would have been necessary in say, 2E), particularly as it interacted with surprise rules and so on, the exact positioning of characters, etc. Even in 5E it's not necessarily correct to say a failed Stealth check automatically means you're "seen", unless you were shuffling past in front of a guard or something. There are a lot of scenarios were a guard would just investigate, or go to get someone, rather than immediately screaming for help. These guards aren't typically elite, or well-trained, or devoted (if they are, that's a very specific scenario and you take other approaches). Not just D&D. It's not a D&D thing, it's an era thing. You saw it applied to every RPG in existence in the 1990s, I know because I spent half my life online back then, discussing RPGs, and there wasn't a single RPG where people didn't basically try to run an argument along those lines. Nor any RPG that some people didn't think was "ideal" for every single genre in existence. The issue was that this was an era before "system matters" had got much purchase. Some people realized it, but a lot just couldn't get their heads around it. You're literally arguing that D&D can't handle sneaking and stealing things (you extended it beyond mere heists a few posts back), which is a pretty common element of "heroic fantasy", especially of the type D&D was inspired by. So that seems contradictory. Oh how soon people forget the d20 era... [/QUOTE]

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