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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8271282" data-attributes="member: 22779">The only time you could possibly require a perception check from the guard would be when the character has less than total cover.&nbsp; Otherwise no checks would be required.&nbsp; Never minding that you automatically fail those stealth checks as soon as you are in the open, since you need some sort of cover to make a stealth check.&nbsp; &nbsp; Failed stealth check = guard has seen something.&nbsp; Or, you tried sneaking in with a disguise?&nbsp; Great, guess what, the DM's going to have random NPC's come up to you repeatedly until you fail a check and it's murder time again.Look, I GET that you folks have apparently had these fantastic DM's that run these scenarios regularly.&nbsp; For me, despite otherwise really great DM's, these scenarios have never, ever worked.&nbsp; They've always failed and then turned the story from Ocean's 11 into Heat.&nbsp; Every time.&nbsp; It's to the point now where, like I said, I refuse to run these kinds of scenarios when I DM.&nbsp; I simply will not do it.&nbsp; They are exercises in futility.&nbsp; And, frankly, I've gotten to the point where I just roll my eyes any time I'm playing with a DM who does because, without fail, it will end in a massive combat.&nbsp; I simply don't see how you can use the mechanics of D&amp;D and actually run a successful infiltration/heist scenario without a GIANT pile of the DM fiat (or fudging if you prefer).&nbsp; If every guard that succeeds in a spot check never calls for help, never raises the alarm, never challenges an unrecognized person, then, sure, ok, that would work I suppose.&nbsp; But, I've never met a DM who does that, so, AFAIC, that DM remains a mythical beast.It's kind of like puzzles.&nbsp; I LOATHE puzzles in RPG's.&nbsp; Hate them with a passion.&nbsp; Mysteries are great, but, I'm talking the whole &quot;Riddle of the Sphinx&quot; kind of thing.&nbsp; I hate them.&nbsp; So, I don't use them when I run D&amp;D.&nbsp; Does D&amp;D do puzzles particularly well?&nbsp; I don't think so because there's nothing in the skill system that really works that way.&nbsp; But, then again, I'm very much the wrong person to ask, because I hate puzzles to begin with.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />&nbsp; Since I don't like doing them, find them boring and immersion breaking I don't use them in the game.&nbsp; Same goes for heist/infiltration scenarios.&nbsp; I find they don't work and I have zero interest in spending the next three hours doing nothing but combat.&nbsp; Again, same goes for company scale combat.&nbsp; I have no interest in spending three hours on a single combat, which is how long it will take (at least) to resolve a 50-100 combatant combat in D&amp;D.&nbsp; I've got far, far better things to do with my time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8271282, member: 22779"] The only time you could possibly require a perception check from the guard would be when the character has less than total cover. Otherwise no checks would be required. Never minding that you automatically fail those stealth checks as soon as you are in the open, since you need some sort of cover to make a stealth check. Failed stealth check = guard has seen something. Or, you tried sneaking in with a disguise? Great, guess what, the DM's going to have random NPC's come up to you repeatedly until you fail a check and it's murder time again. Look, I GET that you folks have apparently had these fantastic DM's that run these scenarios regularly. For me, despite otherwise really great DM's, these scenarios have never, ever worked. They've always failed and then turned the story from Ocean's 11 into Heat. Every time. It's to the point now where, like I said, I refuse to run these kinds of scenarios when I DM. I simply will not do it. They are exercises in futility. And, frankly, I've gotten to the point where I just roll my eyes any time I'm playing with a DM who does because, without fail, it will end in a massive combat. I simply don't see how you can use the mechanics of D&D and actually run a successful infiltration/heist scenario without a GIANT pile of the DM fiat (or fudging if you prefer). If every guard that succeeds in a spot check never calls for help, never raises the alarm, never challenges an unrecognized person, then, sure, ok, that would work I suppose. But, I've never met a DM who does that, so, AFAIC, that DM remains a mythical beast. It's kind of like puzzles. I LOATHE puzzles in RPG's. Hate them with a passion. Mysteries are great, but, I'm talking the whole "Riddle of the Sphinx" kind of thing. I hate them. So, I don't use them when I run D&D. Does D&D do puzzles particularly well? I don't think so because there's nothing in the skill system that really works that way. But, then again, I'm very much the wrong person to ask, because I hate puzzles to begin with. :D Since I don't like doing them, find them boring and immersion breaking I don't use them in the game. Same goes for heist/infiltration scenarios. I find they don't work and I have zero interest in spending the next three hours doing nothing but combat. Again, same goes for company scale combat. I have no interest in spending three hours on a single combat, which is how long it will take (at least) to resolve a 50-100 combatant combat in D&D. I've got far, far better things to do with my time. [/QUOTE]

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