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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8271437" data-attributes="member: 18">Early D&D is virtually all attempted ambushes and involves a huge amount of sneaking up on people and murdering them. Virtually every Leiber story involves sneaking, stealing and murdering. Lankhmar is more D&D than LotR or Three Hearts and Three Lions.This whole "fair fight" approach 5E takes is pretty antithetical to early D&D's approach (the same with 4E). The extreme crap-ness of surprise is part of that.I think your idea that heists/infiltration can't/don't involve violence is completely incomprehensible, especially in the context of BitD which involves violence virtually every session. No idea how to help you with that. If we're saying heists can't feature large amounts of violence (or "turn into HEAT" - presumably meaning the shootout late in HEAT, because the initial violence/stealth-based heist in HEAT was successful) then I'm really confused by why we're using BitD as an example of a "heist" system. Maybe we need to move to the Leverage RPG or something - seems like that might have avoided it.</blockquote>