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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8271516" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, we just (at risk of putting some words in some other people's mouths) feel that calling what 5e has 'support' is a bit of a stretch. It has a bare suggestion of a way to handle things in the form of a skill check mechanic and a tool proficiency. Since no structure or process attaches to these their USE is actually OUTSIDE THE GAME, they are effectively metagame resources! I mean, they have some narrative 'mass' within the game world, but without any actual principles of play or documented process there isn't an actual connection between them and fiction that is part of the game.</p><p></p><p>The thing is, this means that, outside of the realm of combat, D&D (basically all editions except 4e) merely suggest, at best, some way to handle various stuff. It is illustrative to compare this with games which DO have such structure. So, for instance, why would 5e be a better game in which to introduce a 'heist' than Dungeon World? Dungeon World explicitly declares that the game is about the PCs, that it focuses on what the players want to do with the PCs, and that the GM is a 'fan' of the PCs, and that his job is to make life hard for the PCs so they can try to shine. 5e also establishes table roles and goals, the GM is the inventor of the world, arbiter of all matters of application of rules to fiction, and plays the opposition in which the players test their ability to essentially 'beat the dungeon'. </p><p></p><p>Now, if we focus on the mechanics of Dungeon World we see that it has a play process in which the GM creates threats, fronts, and associated dooms (impending badness) which presumably are a backdrop on which the PCs will play out their stories. The GM describes a scene and fictional situation, and from there the players make moves, mechanically defined options available to their characters. The moves must comply with the fiction. Each move associates to the general resolution mechanism, and some moves are fairly universal and can be said to cover pretty much any situation where there is conflict (IE Defy Danger). In response to player success/failure/complication the GM may need to reveal information, and then certainly makes countermoves, which put pressure on the PCs, forcing them to act again in turn. This process simply repeats endlessly, with the fiction advancing each time. Now and then a scene will play out and its resolution will provide the impetus for the framing of the next scene. There are also less detailed 'vignettes' (travel and downtime) in which the move process continues but with a bit more structure and less granularity, at least until it precipitates another scene.</p><p></p><p>Dungeon World has equipment and inventory, money, encumbrance, rules for damage and consequences. So how would it not work AT LEAST as well as 5e for a heist? The milieu is essentially the same as D&D, same sort of medieval fantasy world, characters with levels, monsters, treasure, etc. A heist would be perfectly in keeping with a DW game, assuming the players are into it. The GM would presumably have/create a front which fictionally needs its money transferred to the PC's pockets (and various types of soft move pressure can apply here, like the local loan shark is impatient, etc.). Planning is supported, you can acquire special equipment, buy the services of NPCs, do whatever planning you want, etc. Once things move to the action phase moves are made, scenes described, more moves made, GM moves always apply pressure, but the 'Fan of the PCs' would be acting inconsistently to crash the whole job, certainly not until things are well and truly tossed up! </p><p></p><p>I mean, given that the BEST CASE I can see on the 5e side is that the GM has a job of making up every detail and how each action and skill use, etc. will fit in and what it entails, all with only the idea that the adventure is a test and should be fun, there's CERTAINLY no MORE here than with DW. Certainly there is less in that DW has a very clear process for how to determine where and when things get better or worse, and what relatively looks like success or failure and how to handle them.</p><p></p><p>I admit, DW doesn't inherently tell you how much 'soup' you need to 'make the meal' of the heist plot. Fronts, IIRC, are somewhat loosely defined. They can extend from simply minor localized opposition to the PCs, all the way up to the entire primary focus of the campaign. Nor is a front exactly a 'dungeon' or 'adventure'. So, there will have to be some decision at some point on when the PCs have reached the 'treasure vault' and successfully absconded. I would posit that a scenario like this might be somewhat more 'nailed down' than the usual "map with holes in it" advice. Or perhaps the 'holes' will be more in the way of 'plot hooks' which the players can follow after the main heist has happened. </p><p></p><p>At any rate, it certainly seems like DW has quite a lot of flexibility. It certainly has one characteristic which 5e doesn't bring to the table AS A SYSTEM, which is a built-in 'engine' that drives the game forward into more action and gives context to the actions the players choose their PCs to take.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8271516, member: 82106"] Yeah, we just (at risk of putting some words in some other people's mouths) feel that calling what 5e has 'support' is a bit of a stretch. It has a bare suggestion of a way to handle things in the form of a skill check mechanic and a tool proficiency. Since no structure or process attaches to these their USE is actually OUTSIDE THE GAME, they are effectively metagame resources! I mean, they have some narrative 'mass' within the game world, but without any actual principles of play or documented process there isn't an actual connection between them and fiction that is part of the game. The thing is, this means that, outside of the realm of combat, D&D (basically all editions except 4e) merely suggest, at best, some way to handle various stuff. It is illustrative to compare this with games which DO have such structure. So, for instance, why would 5e be a better game in which to introduce a 'heist' than Dungeon World? Dungeon World explicitly declares that the game is about the PCs, that it focuses on what the players want to do with the PCs, and that the GM is a 'fan' of the PCs, and that his job is to make life hard for the PCs so they can try to shine. 5e also establishes table roles and goals, the GM is the inventor of the world, arbiter of all matters of application of rules to fiction, and plays the opposition in which the players test their ability to essentially 'beat the dungeon'. Now, if we focus on the mechanics of Dungeon World we see that it has a play process in which the GM creates threats, fronts, and associated dooms (impending badness) which presumably are a backdrop on which the PCs will play out their stories. The GM describes a scene and fictional situation, and from there the players make moves, mechanically defined options available to their characters. The moves must comply with the fiction. Each move associates to the general resolution mechanism, and some moves are fairly universal and can be said to cover pretty much any situation where there is conflict (IE Defy Danger). In response to player success/failure/complication the GM may need to reveal information, and then certainly makes countermoves, which put pressure on the PCs, forcing them to act again in turn. This process simply repeats endlessly, with the fiction advancing each time. Now and then a scene will play out and its resolution will provide the impetus for the framing of the next scene. There are also less detailed 'vignettes' (travel and downtime) in which the move process continues but with a bit more structure and less granularity, at least until it precipitates another scene. Dungeon World has equipment and inventory, money, encumbrance, rules for damage and consequences. So how would it not work AT LEAST as well as 5e for a heist? The milieu is essentially the same as D&D, same sort of medieval fantasy world, characters with levels, monsters, treasure, etc. A heist would be perfectly in keeping with a DW game, assuming the players are into it. The GM would presumably have/create a front which fictionally needs its money transferred to the PC's pockets (and various types of soft move pressure can apply here, like the local loan shark is impatient, etc.). Planning is supported, you can acquire special equipment, buy the services of NPCs, do whatever planning you want, etc. Once things move to the action phase moves are made, scenes described, more moves made, GM moves always apply pressure, but the 'Fan of the PCs' would be acting inconsistently to crash the whole job, certainly not until things are well and truly tossed up! I mean, given that the BEST CASE I can see on the 5e side is that the GM has a job of making up every detail and how each action and skill use, etc. will fit in and what it entails, all with only the idea that the adventure is a test and should be fun, there's CERTAINLY no MORE here than with DW. Certainly there is less in that DW has a very clear process for how to determine where and when things get better or worse, and what relatively looks like success or failure and how to handle them. I admit, DW doesn't inherently tell you how much 'soup' you need to 'make the meal' of the heist plot. Fronts, IIRC, are somewhat loosely defined. They can extend from simply minor localized opposition to the PCs, all the way up to the entire primary focus of the campaign. Nor is a front exactly a 'dungeon' or 'adventure'. So, there will have to be some decision at some point on when the PCs have reached the 'treasure vault' and successfully absconded. I would posit that a scenario like this might be somewhat more 'nailed down' than the usual "map with holes in it" advice. Or perhaps the 'holes' will be more in the way of 'plot hooks' which the players can follow after the main heist has happened. At any rate, it certainly seems like DW has quite a lot of flexibility. It certainly has one characteristic which 5e doesn't bring to the table AS A SYSTEM, which is a built-in 'engine' that drives the game forward into more action and gives context to the actions the players choose their PCs to take. [/QUOTE]
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