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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8271860" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Obviously I'm not strongly disagreeing with you on which system would do this better. OTOH, 5e is too 'loose' for this analysis! It doesn't have level-graded DCs AT ALL, so we have literally NO IDEA WHAT THE CORRECT DC IS. Nor does it have more than the vague D&D-ur-concept that low level PCs take on 'low level adventures' (canonicalized only on in the case of combat). So, the problem becomes, your math is correct, I think my Catfolk has a +8 at level 1 (or soon thereafter). He also got a cloak that sometimes gives him advantage on Stealth checks, but only in natural terrain, so it might not count here. OTOH we don't know the DC is 20. Presumably there's a mix of DCs, and without guidance, yeah, maybe the real key one is a 20, but maybe its a 15 or a 10. I guess we could include Inspiration in this discussion too, though it is a pretty weak mechanic that is poorly integrated. Still, if we're at a critical juncture it can be brought into play. </p><p></p><p>All I was intending is that 5e, like 4e, does allow for a pretty good "sneak party" that doesn't have to sacrifice much/anything. I'd note that my Catfolk Battlemaster is also a darn effective combatant who can rip enemies apart in a flash! So, I didn't sacrifice anything/much to get stealth. I did notice the Gnoll Barbarian was hitting harder than me, but the difference wasn't HUGE, and my superiority dice tricks seemed to make up for it adequately (and hey, being an encounter rest refresh class was nice). I wasn't stepping on the rogue much either, her stealth and sleight of hand checks were all a good bit better than mine. I'd be more the guy tagging along for artillery support while she was scouting more than being the PRIMARY sneak.</p><p></p><p>So the problem is, again, lack of structure in 5e. It has no process to put skill checks in context, and not even a really useful DC setting mechanism. Frankly my overall assessment of 5e is it is OK in terms of skills will suffice for 'exploration checks' when someone wants to search or whatnot. Otherwise the game works best when you go in swinging. Likewise social stuff is best handled either with magic or simply by RP. If the GM decides they want a check, well the rules have already put that on them. If playing with an unfamiliar GM you should play conservative, there's little way to know how they will rule on things, and the game itself is pretty much silent. </p><p></p><p>I stated before that skills are optional. Going back over the PHB it doesn't really say that, they are ASSUMED, but the DMG provides a lot of alternatives. As written Skills seem pretty 'non-core', no other part of the game seems to really depend on them, though leaving them out will bone some classes...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8271860, member: 82106"] Obviously I'm not strongly disagreeing with you on which system would do this better. OTOH, 5e is too 'loose' for this analysis! It doesn't have level-graded DCs AT ALL, so we have literally NO IDEA WHAT THE CORRECT DC IS. Nor does it have more than the vague D&D-ur-concept that low level PCs take on 'low level adventures' (canonicalized only on in the case of combat). So, the problem becomes, your math is correct, I think my Catfolk has a +8 at level 1 (or soon thereafter). He also got a cloak that sometimes gives him advantage on Stealth checks, but only in natural terrain, so it might not count here. OTOH we don't know the DC is 20. Presumably there's a mix of DCs, and without guidance, yeah, maybe the real key one is a 20, but maybe its a 15 or a 10. I guess we could include Inspiration in this discussion too, though it is a pretty weak mechanic that is poorly integrated. Still, if we're at a critical juncture it can be brought into play. All I was intending is that 5e, like 4e, does allow for a pretty good "sneak party" that doesn't have to sacrifice much/anything. I'd note that my Catfolk Battlemaster is also a darn effective combatant who can rip enemies apart in a flash! So, I didn't sacrifice anything/much to get stealth. I did notice the Gnoll Barbarian was hitting harder than me, but the difference wasn't HUGE, and my superiority dice tricks seemed to make up for it adequately (and hey, being an encounter rest refresh class was nice). I wasn't stepping on the rogue much either, her stealth and sleight of hand checks were all a good bit better than mine. I'd be more the guy tagging along for artillery support while she was scouting more than being the PRIMARY sneak. So the problem is, again, lack of structure in 5e. It has no process to put skill checks in context, and not even a really useful DC setting mechanism. Frankly my overall assessment of 5e is it is OK in terms of skills will suffice for 'exploration checks' when someone wants to search or whatnot. Otherwise the game works best when you go in swinging. Likewise social stuff is best handled either with magic or simply by RP. If the GM decides they want a check, well the rules have already put that on them. If playing with an unfamiliar GM you should play conservative, there's little way to know how they will rule on things, and the game itself is pretty much silent. I stated before that skills are optional. Going back over the PHB it doesn't really say that, they are ASSUMED, but the DMG provides a lot of alternatives. As written Skills seem pretty 'non-core', no other part of the game seems to really depend on them, though leaving them out will bone some classes... [/QUOTE]
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