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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8272745" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I guess we could ask him.[USER=22779]@Hussar[/USER] , what are you saying?Which of the two are you saying:1)  There is a right way to run 5e and its correct for 5e GM's to adjudicate "stealth obstacle failure = you're seen = the stealth ops part of the caper is up = deal with the new 'you're seen and alarm/violence is about to happen' framing = pretty much combat/A-Team or Wizard ensorcelling them if they can win initiative."2)  There is a stock/orthodox way to run 5e and thus an overwhelming majority of 5e GMs adjudicate "stealth obstacle failure = you're seen = the stealth ops part of the caper is up = deal with the new 'you're seen and alarm/violence is about to happen' framing = pretty much combat/A-Team or Wizard ensorcelling them if they can win initiative."Which of those two are you saying?Really?  That is fascinating.  We were in the same threads and our takeaway is entirely different.  My entire experience and the point of my postings on here from 2012-2014 was to explain how Skill Challenges are indie conflict resolution that are informed by the techniques of Change the Situation, Say Yes or Roll the Dice, Cut to the Action, Genre Logic, Success With Complications, and Fail Forward.I only saw math complaints unbelievably sparingly.  The place I saw math complaints were in the Monster Math/Damage Expressions.  THERE I saw plenty of complaints.  Skill Challenges?  Virtually nothing because the overwhelming majority of people weren't using them/hate them/didn't know how to use them.Almost all of my interactions with complaints were:* Skill Challenges don't work and end up in a pointless dice-rolling exercise disconnected from the fiction (because the people who were saying it didn't work weren't using the techniques above)...its all Fighters arbitrarily using push-ups to impress the king or lifting the king on his throne kind of incoherent nonsense.* Both Success w/ Complications and Fail Forward underwritten by Genre Logic sucks because Genre Logic (rather than Process Sim) creates a lack of common inference-point between player and GM (hence the shifting sands commentary)...PROCESS SIM RULES!* Fail Forward sucks because its EZMode for the players + GM Storytelling that removes player agency.* Indie Scene Resolution (Skill Challenge) is garbage because Win Cons (x success) and Loss Cons (3 failures) for noncombat are metagame/artificial crap are jarring (remember that word!) and pull me out of my immersion (but HP...those Win Con/Loss Cons are not metagame in any way and are just fine!).I mean, a lot of people in this thread were involved with those posts.  Anyone commenting here want to chime in?  Am I crazy?  [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER] , [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] , [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] , [USER=205]@TwoSix[/USER] , [USER=87792]@Neonchameleon[/USER] , [USER=5142]@Aldarc[/USER]  and all the other folks who were on the other side of it who were among the vast chorus making the claims above (several of which are in this thread...but they're a tiny drop in the bucket of the outspoken Skill Challenge/4e detractors!)?  I'm MORE than happy to be corrected!</blockquote>

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