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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8273192" data-attributes="member: 6696971">[USER=58416]@Argyle King[/USER] I appreciate your long post (hence the xp), but I cannot remotely conceive (in terms of how the actual system gives rise to antagonism/"being-an-obstacle-to-PC-dramatic-need") of what you're envisioning here.  In the actual play of the game.If I'm running a 4e game at Epic Tier for a level 26 party and they're trying to Parley with an Ancient Red Dragon (level 30), I'm running a Complexity 1, Level 30 Skill Challenge.  The Medium DC is 32 at that level.  They need to defeat 4 * DC 32 obstacles before they fail * 3 (and lose the Parley).  Let us say this is the beginning of the framing:"Jendyx the Inferno lays like a disinterested dog in the molten slag of the burning volcano.  Only a quarter of his body uncovered and even that is waxing and waning as the lava pools all around him.  He knows you need his help...and he clearly doesn't feel threatened by you.Without looking at you, his voice rumbles.  Your people hail from a furnace much like this Katerina (a Fire Genasi). Refresh my memory.  Wasn't their volcano doused by the Frozen Wind of the North (an Ancient White Dragon).  And with that dousing, your proud people turned refugees.  Those that didn't die as cowards from the dragon's razing their home....not impressed...or am I mistaken?"You don't roll dice for monsters in 4e noncombat conflict resolution (just like in PBtA).  The GM provides the thematic adversity/obstacles, provokes the players to action, and then changes the situation with more/new/escalated adversity. The only numbers that matter here are 32  and * 4 vs * 3.  But those numbers don't tell me how much history Jendyx the Inferno knows, how initially he is unwilling to aid the PCs, how initially unimpressed he is, how deep his reservoir of Arcana is (knowledge or power).  Like 6-, 7-9, and 10+ in PBtA, they just tell me what target numbers PCs have to get what they want and move the fiction and gamestate along in a trajectory that nets them a Story Win (Jendyx's aid) or a Story Loss (Jendyx's ire).  Just like in PBtA games, its my job to faithfully frame conflicts and convey Jendyx as x, y, and z (and in so doing provoke PCs into action/decision-points).  Maybe the PC goes with a History move, succeeds, and corrects a detail of the record for Jendyx and turn his move back on him (which he'll naturally say it was a test and they passed...and then I'll move to the next Jendyx parley obstacle).  And things will continue on from there.Its unclear to me what you're imagine here is a problem.  And I would have to imagine that you would have exactly the same problem running a dragon in Dungeon World (given that, like 4e, DW's monsters are a collection of tags and numbers and its up to the GM to appropriately render them into the shared imagined space...then players make moves and roll dice - just like 4e - and we find out how things go)?Do you have an example of some kind that can clarify?  An example in either 4e or Dungeon World would do the trick in helping me understand what is going on "under the cognitive hood" for you as it pertains to the actual systemization of these games?</blockquote>

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