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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8273408" data-attributes="member: 22779">Neither.&nbsp; I'm not trying to generalize beyond my own table.&nbsp; I'll leave others to do that.What I am saying is that AT THE TABLES I PLAYED AT, which included three different DM's, all three of which I do consider very good DM's who know their stuff, every single &quot;stealth ops&quot; style scenario played exactly the same.&nbsp; Which would be your (1) result above - as soon as there is a failed skill check, the stealth ops part of the caper is up.&nbsp; This didn't matter if we ran modules (Storm Kings Thunder, Princes of the Apocalypse) or homebrew (Darksun using 4e rules, Dragonlance using 5e), and that's not delving back into the 3e or earlier days where it was pretty much the same thing.I personally think it's very telling to see people talk about how their group makes a big difference.&nbsp; If that's true, then it's not the system at all, but the group.&nbsp; Since I cannot clone your players, telling me that your players are great and help make this work doesn't really do me any good.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8273408, member: 22779"] Neither. I'm not trying to generalize beyond my own table. I'll leave others to do that. What I am saying is that AT THE TABLES I PLAYED AT, which included three different DM's, all three of which I do consider very good DM's who know their stuff, every single "stealth ops" style scenario played exactly the same. Which would be your (1) result above - as soon as there is a failed skill check, the stealth ops part of the caper is up. This didn't matter if we ran modules (Storm Kings Thunder, Princes of the Apocalypse) or homebrew (Darksun using 4e rules, Dragonlance using 5e), and that's not delving back into the 3e or earlier days where it was pretty much the same thing. I personally think it's very telling to see people talk about how their group makes a big difference. If that's true, then it's not the system at all, but the group. Since I cannot clone your players, telling me that your players are great and help make this work doesn't really do me any good. [/QUOTE]

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