Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8274022" data-attributes="member: 82106">So, lets reset a little bit here:I think we've taken this whole sub-debate far enough to have pretty much clarity. That is to say, 5e is not providing an ability check system, in any particular, which is adapted to driving forward and resolving conflicts in a fashion that is conducive to dramatically driven styles of play. It doesn't provide ANYTHING in the way of real hard structure that such a process can be built on, without essentially starting over and rebuilding the check system (granting that its most basic ingredients, skills and ability scores, and the concept of DCs, are basically fine). Lets remember what the point of all this was, as a part of the discussion on D&D compared to 'Bespoke Genre TTRPGs'. These bespoke games, pretty much always these days, ARE built on generalized resolution systems which feature odds/stakes setting and/or negotiation, consistent use across all conflict situations, some level of abstraction possible between the stated reason/goal when a check is made and the consequences, pre-decision setting of what those consequences are for all possible result states, etc. Each 'indie game' will pick and choose some mix of these, maybe with other elements and possibly with some quirks, but the fundamentals of player choice will be there. Honestly vanilla PbtA games like DW probably lack the most of these features of any such systems, yet they are vastly different from 5e and produce much different results. Mostly they DRIVE THE GAME DIFFERENTLY. One of the frustrations with a game like 5e is simply that it really doesn't handle models for PCs that are far from 'remorseless self interest coupled with total team dedication'. It is simply not feasible to reliably engage the PCs in specific ways. You can give them 'hooks', but even something as basic as DW's bonds is missing. Nor could you really implement it in terms of checks made to accomplish enacting the bond, because checks are so ambiguous! I mean, you can write a 'bond rule' into 5e, but it only works to the extent that the GM runs with it. The DW bond rule 'just works', and guess what, PCs form bonds! You can use those to produce all sorts of results, like a PC actually risking his life for someone, he's got XP on the line! (the player does, but now the two's goals are aligned). I mean, in indie terms, 5e is playable, but only in the sense that it doesn't seem to set out to accomplish anything.</blockquote>

Verification