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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 2996726" data-attributes="member: 141">Those spells really don't render skills irrelevant at the levels in the sweet spot.  Sure if you have knock prepared you don't need a rogue.  But if you are 4th level, there's a serious opportunity cost involved in having knock instead of something else.  Similarly for the other spells.  Now once you are throwing around 8th level spells, then sure, there is plenty of room for these utility spells to fill up your lower level slots.  But up to level 10 or so you can't just dispense with the skills without significant cost.So how do you extend the sweet spot without neutering the magic system?  It would be nice to ensure that at some level there is an equilibrium between what spellcasters can do with their lower level slots and what the skilled PCs can do.  Have spells work better than skills when they are the highest level spell the caster can use, but fall behind as the skilled user gains levels (and keeps their scores maxed out).   Maybe knock can only open locks with a DC of 25 or lower.  A wizard can exceed the rogue as long as both are 3rd level.  But when they are 18th level, the knock is just a cheap parlor trick. Maybe spider climb works like the Climb description says (+8 bonus, can take 10 even when threatened) and not like the spell description says.  And so on. Matching or exceeding spellcasters in a number of areas would be a decent goal for skilled PCs to have.  If the rogue can climb better than the spider climbing wizard, and open locks that the wizard's knock won't touch, then that's pretty good.  If he can also win long term allies with Diplomacy that the wizard can't get with charm monster, then things are really looking up.  Magic might provide another chance if the rogue fails the roll, or it might provide short term benefit, but skills should be more stable and reliable in the long run.</blockquote>

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